Nearly 2 hours arguing with Samsung Phone Support on SmartThings Hub 2018 aka v3

[aruffell (Alex)]

Two reps, including a supervisor, argued with me for nearly 2 hours (!!!) that I CANNOT use SmartThings Classic with my new v3 hub. Unless I am dreaming things, our trusted ST Staff posting in these forums has repeatedly told us to keep using the classic app while they work on updating the new app to keep things working. Am I missing anything?

The reason for my call was to get help, since email support is not answering, on a few remaining issues post my v2 to v3 migration.

1. My scenes were working beautifully at first (way better than w/ v2 where scenes would not finish) but then started saying “Something’s wrong - We can’t load your screen right now.” when I tried to edit them. I suspect it has to do with some device I added (or tore out) which is causing it to “go wrong”. I cannot edit or delete scenes but I can run them. If I use the new app I can create them but since a good majority of my devices are not supported, I can’t use it as a work around. Editing/deleting the scenes created by the new app in the classic app is not possible so I can’t workaround the issue by using the new app to create them and then edit them in the classic where all my devices are available. Deleting all the scenes, to clear up possible corruption, did not help either.

2. Network repairs occasionally stop working. I believe that my Aeon HEM G5 was causing the issue. Excluding, resetting and adding back seems to have fixed it. I have more details on this if ST is interested.

3. Including devices doesn’t always work. The hub’s led stays solid green instead of blinking and nothing gets discovered. A power cycle fixes the issue. As I added devices, this was getting to be more and more frequent. Excluding and including new devices was extremely slow, and often did not work at all until I rebooted the hub (via IDE when possible).

COMPLAINT:

The support agents argued with me for nearly 2 hours stating that I had to be wrong because v3 is not supported and not compatible with the classic app. They questioned even the most basic things I told them (I had to confirm I was actually on the classic app!!, etc.). We all know this is NOT TRUE and I am quite certain I read posts on this forum from trusted ST engineers that, to the contrary, we should be using the classic app until the new one is ready.

On top of that, they seemed not to believe me that 100% of my home automation was working (ignoring the setup/maintenance part) just fine in the classic app. One solution I was given was to leave incompatible devices on v2 and just move compatible devices on v3… and use both apps. WHAT??? This does not address my issue (scenes not working), and is totally unnecessary, as all of my devices are working on v3 as long as I use the classic app.

The conversation also took a detour when I was being educated on how their 3 pack allows you to put 2 hubs under the main one (not sure why he was still stuck on that concept given it had nothing to do with my issue). When I told him that I believe he was talking about a typical wifi mesh network he said he was talking about zwave… Unless I missed a big change, I don’t believe it is possible to add other ST hubs as Secondary controllers?? I’ve seen this issue debated on the forums more than once for those with very large homes or living in Faraday cages… and other than repeaters there was little you could do (having two separate hubs is an option but very inconvenient as they would be separate and independent systems). The support agent was trying to prove his knowledge, to overcome my objections, with an example that I believe to be incorrect (if so it totally backfired).

SmartThings PLEASE educate your support on the matter. I can set aside the typical tech support treatment where they assume you are an id10t because I understand that they often have to deal with people with extremely basic technical knowledge but if they had actually listened to me I would expect them to consider what I was saying as a possibility and worth checking with R&D and not some poorly written script.

@tpmanley
@Brad_ST
@posborne
@Kianoosh_Karami

Sorry for tagging all of you, but I’d like this post NOT to be ignored (I think I dealt with some bugs) and I would really love to get some help. On a side note, the Scenes are what I was using for my 3 year old and 1.5 year old going to bed routines… not having them is a bit disruptive and my son keeps telling me “Papa’ - fix it, it (“ST”) is broken”.

My migration took 2 weeks and was grueling but nothing like this 2 hour phone support call gave me a headache and left me speechless from the frustration.

Let me make one last point clear, I am NOT trying to bash the support agents, even though I would have dealt with the call very differently in their place, as they can only relay the information they are provided (clearly incomplete and most likely incorrect in this case).

[JDRoberts]

@aruffell

The conversation also took a detour when I was being educated on how their 3 pack allows you to put 2 hubs under the main one (not sure why he was still stuck on that concept given it had nothing to do with my issue). When I told him that I believe he was talking about a typical wifi mesh network he said he was talking about zwave… Unless I missed a big change, I don’t believe it is possible to add other ST hubs as Secondary controllers??

I can’t speak anything else, but as far as the above…

1. it has always been possible to add another nonST Z wave controller as a secondary, it just didn’t work very well. But that’s exactly how people are using the Aeotec USB stick or the Homeseer zstick when they want to use the zwave utilities that come with those controllers on their ST network. They add it as a secondary. There are also people who have added some other Z wave controllers as secondary’s for other reasons, such as the Staples connect integration.

FAQ: Is there a way to see the Zwave mesh network map?

But you couldn’t add a smartthings hub as a secondary to another smartthings hub as a primary because the cloud account would get confused.

2. Setting everything in number one aside. The SmartThings models which have “sub hubs” did receive firmware changes a few months ago so that now the sub hubs will all work as Zwave repeaters and zigbee repeaters for the primary hub. It’s not clear to me whether they show up as a secondary controller or just as a “thing“ which happens to be a repeater, but that part of what the customer service agent was saying is true. When the issue is that you need a repeater in another part of the house, you can improve both the Wi-Fi mesh and the zwave mesh at the same time with one of the sub hubs.

[aruffell (Alex)]

@JDRoberts - I should have clarified I was only talking about ST v2/v3 hubs plus the 3 hub kit they have. I have 2 secondary controllers (Homeseer Zstick and Zwave Toolbox) connected right now. I was unaware you could put a v2 “under” (so to speak) a v3 or viceversa. Either way, the topic was irrelevant to the issues I was describing to support (scenes).

[JDRoberts]

@aruffell

@JDRoberts - I should have clarified I was only talking about ST v2/v3 hubs plus the 3 hub kit they have. I have 2 secondary controllers (Homeseer Zstick and Zwave Toolbox) connected right now. I was unaware you could put a v2 “under” (so to speak) a v3 or viceversa. Either way, the topic was irrelevant to the issues I was describing to support (scenes).

I don’t know one way or the other if you can put a V2 under a V3.

I just know that the sub hubs in the Wi-Fi mesh model lines ( where you get three hubs in one box set) did not originally act as Zwave repeaters, but now they do.

[tgauchat (ActionTiles.com co-founder Terry @ActionTiles; GitHub: @cosmicpuppy)]

Whether or not a V3 Hub can work with Classic; I believe the Agents were giving you consistent information.

All new SmartThings Customers have been directed to use the New App (Connect) since about Feb 2018.

If you are installing a V3 Hub, then (by definition only), you are a new Customer.

[aruffell (Alex)]

Sorry, I don’t agree with being labeled a “new user” as me upgrading from a v1 to a v2 and now a v3 is somewhat like upgrading my Samsung phone… S3, S4, S5, S6 edge, S7 and currently Note8 - was I a new Samsung phone user each time I upgraded? The product evolved and was not a total remake so my previous experience counted. Had it been a total remake then I might agree… Either way, support MAY be consistent in telling users to use the new app but that doesn’t make it a good move. Half my stuff doesn’t work in the new app but it works just fine on the classic app on both v2 and v3. Also, below are just some of the official ST posts (some before v3 and some after) stating to keep using the classic app while the new one reaches feature parity. Some posts specifically say that ONLY onboarding v3 requires the new app, then you can use the old app… which is exactly what I am doing and exactly what support “knew for a fact” was absolutely not possible. I was even asked to verify the icon of the app I was using to confirm I wasn’t smoking something and mistaking the new app for the old one

Important Changes to SmartThings Classic Login System

SmartThings Classic is updating to the Samsung Account login system! This is a step forward in our journey to prepare you for the new SmartThings app, which will bring you access to Samsung devices and services in addition to the hundreds of Works with SmartThings products you already use and love. What to expect When alerted in the SmartThings Classic app, please follow the prompts to update to a Samsung account. Note that this is being released in small groups to ensure the best possible experience, so not all users will see the update at the same time. Once you have updated, please continue to use the SmartThings Classic app until you receive additional communications from us. We are actively working to add the SmartThings Classic features you love into the new SmartThings app. Goin…

@SmartThings

Once you have updated, please continue to use the SmartThings Classic app until you receive additional communications from us. We are actively working to add the SmartThings Classic features you love into the new SmartThings app. Going forward, you will use your Samsung Account to login to the SmartThings Classic app.

@vlad

I relayed the message - the final message is “Moving forward, use your login for SmartThings Classic. Please continue using the SmartThings Classic app until further notice.” but I can see how mention of the app on the banner could confuse some and deter them from migrating and seeing that last screen.

@tpmanley

Do we know if the new hub will work with the classic app?

You’ll need to use the new SmartThings app to claim the hub but once claimed you can use the Classic app if you’d like.

@Brad_ST

No, this isn’t true. You can onboard the new devices in either app. The new Hub does have to be onboarded in the new app as it uses a codeless claim flow but after that you can use either app with the Hub.

[xamindar (Jared)]

Why are you “downgrading” from a V2 hub to a V3 hub anyway?

[aruffell (Alex)]

@xamindar - Sorry for quoting myself but I had already answered that so here is my answer:

@aruffell

I am giving ST the benefit of the doubt that CPU speed and less memory will not adversely affect the performance of my setup. Either way, even if it were to, development of new features will most likely focus on the new hardware so that is where I prefer to be. Also, I must assume that this revision fixes hardware bugs and/or optimizes other aspects of the hub. Speculation I know…

I see no value in having on board batteries that leak. I had batteries in my v2 hub only until I found they had made a mess. All of my IT/HA/ISP equipment is under UPS so no need for batteries anyway.

Overall I am just curious.

On top of this, there are Zwave and Zigbee improvements (mostly security related) that are critical in my view.

[professordave (DavidK)]

When comparing V1 against V2, SmartThings stopped providing updates to V1 relatively quickly.

So far they are still providing updates to V2.

I am hoping that this continues as V3 is not really an upgrade? Maybe?

If they had made the V3 a real “V3” I would buy one now. Not sure what to do.

[tgauchat (ActionTiles.com co-founder Terry @ActionTiles; GitHub: @cosmicpuppy)]

@professordave

SmartThings stopped providing updates to V1 relatively quickly.

And thank-goodness for that!

I prefer a stable product than one with frequent updates … any day!!!

I’m am 100% confident that I have had far fewer problems with my SmartThings home (running on Hub V1) than the average Hub V2 customer.

[aruffell (Alex)]

@tgauchat

I prefer a stable product than one with frequent updates … any day!!!

I’m am 100% confident that I have had far fewer problems with my SmartThings home (running on Hub V1) than the average Hub V2 customer.

To each their own and you are probably right on it being more stable. I, on the other hand, like to be on the bleeding edge even though it does cause issues at times. As a non ST example - All of my Ubiquiti Unifi networking gear is running beta firmware/software updated multiple times a month as their software is only exposing a portion of what the hardware is capable of (they use the same hardware on another product line [Edge…] and it can do lots more) so it is useful and fun to get the latest features sooner (at the price of occasional issues). I enjoy tinkering with ST HA stuff and I crave updates (they they are my addiction!). What ST would need is a stable channel and a bleeding edge channel so that users preferring stability over features can go with stable and those like me wanting bleeding edge software can live in what amounts to be a perennial beta channel. Ubiquiti has alpha, beta and stable channels and it seems to work. I have never tried alpha as life without internet connectivity is SOOOO hard but I am always on their latest beta with rare issues.

Edit: I would not be surprised if focus will shift to v3 at some point. That is one main reason why I do not see much value in remaining behind on v1/v2 (given what I seek).

[tgauchat (ActionTiles.com co-founder Terry @ActionTiles; GitHub: @cosmicpuppy)]

@aruffell

I, on the other hand, like to be on the bleeding edge even though it does cause issues at times.

Ummm… I find this statement impossible to resolve. Complete and utter cognitive dissonance.

You literally admit your preference for “bleeding edge” (as in likely to cause deep cuts and blood loss), and simultaneously complain that your received a bit of inaccurate information from Support?

You can’t grasp a knife by the blade and not expect to… Bleed. Painfully. Frequently.

If people want stability - at least stay away from the edge. Otherwise you’re getting exactly what you bought.

[aruffell (Alex)]

The topic is getting off track… but… the issue was that there was a disconnect between recommendations provided by ST engineers and Samsung ST Support. They are addressing the issue so that Support will provide consistent recommendations.

Whether I am on a stable or beta release, has nothing to do with a breakdown of information within their company… although it is more likely for people to be more familiar with the old (prior to v3 stuff) rather than the new (post v3 stuff).

I contacted support only because I was convinced I was at an impasse where their ability to fix things we do not have access to was required. At this point in time, it appears that was the case based on what I was told.

I always appreciate your helpfulness and input but if you want to troll me further, use PM so we do not bore others with off topic debates

[Paralytic]

The question ST staff need to answer is whether the V3 hub is officially supported for users of the classic app.

Despite the posts you link to above, I suspect the answer is no, hence your 2 hour discussion with support and the pain you’re now going through.

[xamindar (Jared)]

So you basically only upgraded because it is the new version and you want to be on the “bleeding edge” with everything?
That contradicts your desire to stay on the classic app, which is the old outdated stuff. I can see why you had such a struggle with Samsung Support. If you want to be on the bleeding edge with everything, you really need to be using the newest app as well.

Many cases, if you want to be “bleeding edge”, it means losing some older features.
Some examples:
Windows 7 > Windows 10: you lose control over if/when the OS updates
PS3 FAT 60gig > each later version: you lose backward compatibility, usb ports, memory ports, etc

There are many other examples out there, and smartthings is also one of those. Samsung wants to start dialing their system down to their own little eco-system. They gotta start bringing in the money one way or another. You either follow along, or you jump ship. Arguing with them for hours will not change their minds.

[Jwwhite (JIm)]

I just installed a V3 hub for a friend. We used the new app to install the hub.Then everything else was done using the Classic app. Never had any issues whatsoever. The V3 hub is working just great with the Classic app.

[Paralytic]

@Jwwhite

The V3 hub is working just great with the Classic app.

I don’t think anyone is disputing that the V3 hub works for a good number of use cases/devices with the classic app. The question is whether it is supported and whether support should therefore help customers who are having issues.

[aruffell (Alex)]

@xamindar

So you basically only upgraded because it is the new version and you want to be on the “bleeding edge” with everything?
That contradicts your desire to stay on the classic app, which is the old outdated stuff. I can see why you had such a struggle with Samsung Support. If you want to be on the bleeding edge with everything, you really need to be using the newest app as well.

I’ll summarize the thread above:

• ST Engineers have suggested users keep using the Classic app while the new app gets to feature parity, especially if things are not working in the new app
• ST Engineers have confirmed that v3 requires the new app ONLY for onboarding, then you can use the classic app
• Samsung Support (turns out there are two support groups, one specifically ST and one at Samsung that ‘also’ covers ST - I called the latter by mistake) is stating that the Classic app is NOT compatible with v3 and it CANNOT be used AT ALL with v3 . This appears to be due to a one-liner message (that they read to me) they were given that gave them that understanding. While that message was referring to “hub enrollment” they took it as an absolute statement on ALL functionality.
• Samsung Support was not alerted to ST Engineer’s recommendation to us to “keep using the Classic app until further notice”.
• Samsung Support also told me that they were actively emailing users to move them to the new app… which I believe ST later confirmed to also be incorrect. The email campaign Samsung Support referred to was the new login (ST to Samsung) and not the app. That confusion (login migration not equal to app migration) also appeared on these forums early on and was cleared by ST directly.
• My issue with all of this was that Scenes on v3 worked for a while and then broke. According to what ST Engineers have stated on these forums I was doing what was recommended (use Classic App on v3 to keep things working while other app is being worked on). I am at an impasse where I need ST to fix the scene issue as I cannot do it on my end, but any further dialog was being refused due to what I knew to be a misunderstanding. The impression I got in the conversation was that they were too busy telling me they were certain I was wrong to even consider the possibility they had incomplete/incorrect information (based on backing information I provided to the contrary).

I do NOT have a desire to stay with the Classic app, but I DO have a NECESSITY to do so. I have over 200 (virtual, C2C, physical, etc) devices configured in ST and the majority of critical devices are not working under the new app (ie.: all my dimmers and switches). All of these devices work on v3, just not in the new app due to custom DTHs. I do have some other issues but they do not appear to be specific to v3 (include/exclude/network repair/slow status update/status mismatch/etc). These are frustrating but manageable.

[aruffell (Alex)]

[quote=“Paralytic, post:17, topic:137604”]
I don’t think anyone is disputing that the V3 hub works for a good number of use cases/devices with the classic app.[/quote]

Everything [devices / smart apps / webCore / C2C Integrations / etc] was working on v3 with the Classic app in my case.

Based on preliminary information the issues with Scenes that I am seeing may be a “timeout” when pulling in all my devices (first step in creating/editing a scene in the Classic app). They are looking into it to address the issue (Thank you ST!). I had not edited/created scenes in a while so I do not know when the issue started but it appears to be due to the number of devices I have. I know there are lots more people out there with more devices… it would be interesting to compare notes. Can they edit/create scenes in their Classic app when having 200+ devices (as defined above)?

@Paralytic

The question is whether it is supported and whether support should therefore help customers who are having issues.

I would rather @Brad_ST confirm this (or correct me) here to put an end to this, but it is my understanding they confirmed to me (PM) that I was correct.

[Paralytic]

@aruffell

I would rather @Brad_ST confirm this (or correct me) here to put an end to this, but it is my understanding they confirmed to me (PM) that I was correct.

If by “correct” you mean that Smartthings are supporting V3 users on the classic app, then that is good news.