Home control / automation with two or more hubs

Devices & Integrations Connected Things
1

Hi

I am coming to the conclusion, that my ST hub is full.
I am having about 26 edge drivers, 110 devices and maybe 200 automations.

I can see in the webpage for my hub, that it report ‘SoftLimit’ for numbers of drivers installed, and the past 2 weeks I had a lot of problems with offline devices, total zigbee network lost and other issues.

The past over 3 years, I was very happy about how ST works, but now it seems to come to a limit.

One solution, that could be nice, if you could mount an external SSD on the USB port of the hub, to extend the memory size of your system. But until now, Samsung has not announced any attempt to increase memory of hub… Maybe they don’t want that, because Samsung/Aeotec plan to release a new hub with more memory, and SSD solution would cost them money :wink:

Other solution, would be to be able to operate with more then one hub for a single location, and be able to control and automate across these hub’s.
Here you could split up in the way, for example use one hub for Zwave, and one for zigbee, and maybe one for Lan devices.
It would not be different to a home setup consisting of a ST hub and a integrated Hue hub, here it should just be another ST hub integrated into the first ST hub.

Last solution is to switch to a completely new setup, like Homey or HA, and I would not like to do that :frowning:

Anybody know if there is any solution, or something is in the pipeline from Smartthings?

2

If they made an updated— let’s say-“V4” Hub that was Z-wave and Zigbee and had more memory and kept the current features of the V2 hub, would buy it.

2 Likes
3

Right after the conversion to Edge, I struggled with my V3 hub and had issues with devices going offline and automations not running.

With some guidance from some other members on this forum, I purchased 2 more V3 hubs. I now use 1 hub for Zigbee, 1 hub for Zwave and 1 hub for Lan devices and third-party integrations such as Ring. It solved all of my issues at that time and worked quite well.

During the black Friday sales, I purchased 2 ST Stations. I was going to use hub replace to move my Zigbee hub to the first one and my Lan/integrations hub to the second one and keep the replaced V3 hubs as spares. I can’t find any reliable information on how much memory and Cpu the Station has. I have even chatted with and called Samsung support and they can’t find the information either! I found 1 review that states 1.7GHZ Quad core 512MB of Ram and 4GB eMMC flash but there is no way to confirm this as even Samsung sales or tech support doesn’t seem to be able to find this information.

Since mid-September after the release of firmware 49.09, Zigbee has been a mess with multiple posts about Zigbee problems from forum members. There seems to be multiple issues on the platform right now and I’m waiting for things to settle down before I use the hub replace feature to move to the new Stations. I’m also concerned that the Station doesn’t seem to be getting the same firmware updates that the V2/V3 hubs are getting until well after the older hubs have been rolled out.

4

In the October ‘Hub Everywhere’ press release Samsung said

Starting with the SmartThings Station, users can now create a multi-hub network in their home, adding additional hubs to their primary one, which becomes part of the Thread mesh. Doing so allows Matter devices to connect to the most optimal or closest hub, extending the range and reliability of their network.

Still not exactly clear what this means in practical terms, although does imply possibly that Zwave is not contemplated here. Presumably everything Matter? Or just Thread?

1 Like
5

If Samsung announced that, I think the smartthings firmware is already capable of running multihub, because i don’t think they develop different firmwares for Smartthings station and Smartthings hub.
You can also see, if you go to your hubs web page under Characteristics, there are some settings for the hub, for example ‘ZwaveAvailability’, and Zwave in firmware is just disabled for Smartthings stations.

ST status
ST status1571×922 110 KB

Maybe they are just disabling the multihub functionality for a Smartthings hub.

6

Do you have 3 hubs, you can control as one system?
Meaning, if a zwave motion sensor on hub 1 is activated, then you can turn on a zigbee lamp on hub 2 ?

1 Like
7

The Station doesn’t physically have a zwave radio.

As I understand it, the Station’s multi-hub feature combines the zigbee and Thread mesh between units. But one unit is still the “master” and does all the processing, driver installs, etc. So multi-hub helps extend your meshes, but it doesn’t help add memory or processing power.

Also remember for non-Station multi hub setups that any Routine using devices from different hubs will run in the cloud.

2 Likes
8

Yes, it all works as one system, however if the routine you create crosses hubs then the routine will not run locally. So if your routine has a condition or action from devices on hub1 and hub 2, it will run in the cloud, if the routine has an condition or action from devices that are all on a single hub then it will run locally.

When adding a new device you will be asked which hub you want to install it on.

3 Likes
9

Quite a few community members have more than one SmartThings hub,for different reasons. This is becoming even more true with the “hub everywhere” initiative already mentioned above that intends to put a built-in Zigbee/thread/matter hub (But not zwave) into many different Samsung smart devices, from televisions to soundbars, and eventually refrigerators and washing machines.

But even without the “hub everywhere” initiative, you can use multiple SmartThings hubs right now.

  1. you can add multiple SmartThings hubs to one SmartThings account.

  2. you can also now add multiple SmartThings hubs to one SmartThings “location.“ That didn’t used to be true, so if you’re looking at something written before 2022 it may tell you that you can’t do it. But you can now.

  3. right now, with the exception of thread on a SmartThings station or one of the WiFi mesh models, Each hub on the account maintains its own Zigbee, thread, and zwave (If it supports zwave) networks. So when you add a new end device like a sensor or a light switch, you will be asked to select which hub on your account you want to add that device to.

Eventually, Samsung intends the thread networks from different hubs on your account to be available to merge. At the time of this posting, that can only be done with the SmartThings station hubs.

We should note that this is way easier to do technically with thread than with Zigbee, so while Samsung has made some statements indicating that they would like to eventually also offer this option for Zigbee, it may take longer, and be limited to specific models.

Because the current networks belong to a specific hub, they don’t share repeaters.

  1. right now, if you create a routine That includes devices that belong to different hubs, that routine will have to run in the cloud. The hubs do not speak directly to each other in most cases.

(As always, the Wi-Fi mesh models are an exception, but those appear to be end of life devices, and they are updated less frequently than the other models, and don’t have all of the same features, particularly with regards to matter.

So while You can still buy them new, I would not recommend those Specific models until there is a firm commitment from SmartThings that they will be continued in the future and until they are updated to match the functionality of the other models, particularly with regard to matter.)

——-
So…

If the issue is that you are running out of memory for Edge drivers (a common symptom of this is that the hub keeps shutting down and rebooting), you might find that adding a second smartthings hub of any model helps if you can then limit the number of edge drivers on each. A common way to do this is to put Zigbee devices on one hub and zwave devices on another.

Note that SmartThings still uses a new architecture version of “superLAN connect”, Which means it will download a bunch of LAN drivers that you may not need, like for Sonos. If you delete these, they will just be added again The next time it does a LAN scan, probably within an hour or two.

You also cannot permanently delete stock drivers for zwave or Zigbee— they will get added back again with the next hub firmware update.

But at least you have control over how you distribute your custom edge drivers and that can be helpful as some of them are quite large.

Another popular reason for having more than one hub is local communication issues due to architecture, such as in Adobe or cement buildings. In that case, you may need a hub on each floor just to communicate with the devices in those rooms.

Some people will also put a separate hub in an outbuilding to reach Zigbee/Z wave/thread devices there, communicating to the cloud by internet.

In all these cases, you can write a routine that has, for example, a sensor connected to one hub and a light switch connected to another. Just remember that that routine will run in the cloud and therefore will need an active Internet connection.

So that’s what’s currently available. We may see more multi hub options in the future at both the RF protocol layer and the application layer, but we aren’t there yet.

9 Likes
10

Thank you very much for good explanation @JDRoberts :+1:

I will have some thoughts about if local execution is most important, or staying with Smartthings with more hubs but without local execution :slight_smile:

One last question :wink:
Will the home monitor work over 2 hubs?
I have a lot of Zwave motion sensors, and a lot Zigbee door/window sensors.

1 Like
11

I think so, but I’m not 100% sure.

@csstup or @Automated_House or another member who has more than one hub may be able to say for sure. Hopefully someone who does will chime in.

1 Like
12

You might find that, if you analyse your routines by activity and/or rooms, then thinking in terms of installing different devices on different hubs, the percentage of routines that must use more than one hub is very low, i.e. the majority will run locally. That’s what I found anyway!

I analysed my devices and automations recently and decided to order, when available, a Station to complement my V3 - if in the future, as suggested, hub interoperability improves, by Thread or whatever, so much the better.
My conclusion anyway.

1 Like
13

Other than the Matter Switch driver (for an Eve Energy plug), here is the list of LAN drivers installed on my ST Refrigerator Hub with Zigbee/Thread dongle. These are also installed on my EV-WT525 Wi-Fi hub.

Clipboard01
Clipboard011613×555 73.7 KB

1 Like
14

Yes, you are right, majority of routines can run local.
I just counted how many Zwave and Zigbee drivers I need, 11 for Zigbee, 11 for Zwave and then the default lan drivers (Hue, JBL and more) that cannot be deleted.
It will of course work much better on 2 hubs, but it will not be possible to expand with much more.
It is actually still on the limit on 2 hubs, as many report that you should not have more then 12-14 drivers before performance decrease.
All these default LAN drivers are very annoying!

Do you know how much memory the new station has, more or less a V3 hub?

15

No, and ridiculous as it seems Samsung doesn’t want to say :man_shrugging:

At least I understand it has the same, or more

that you should not have more then 12-14 drivers before performance decrease.

Total drivers including LAN drivers? Community drivers? Would be great if these limits were clear, but if this is total I find it almost impossible to comply

1 Like
16

it works for me.

2 Likes
17

You are so right. Yes, I think it is including all drivers, so in theory you can only install 6-7 drivers if system shall work fast and reliabel.
Something has to happen, if smartthings want to survive on the smarthome market, as most people starting with smarthome keep expanding their smarthome.
We need a hub V4, or a firmware that can use the usb to connect external SSD, or they force people to Homey, Hubitat, HA or other!

Samsung should maybe as first step make a Lan driver for multi hub use, so even if you use 2-3 hubs, then the hubs should communicate on the local lan network, and not use the server.
They should also remove all Lan drivers as default, so people can free up memory for other drivers, and only install what is needed.

Where can I post a request to Samsung on this community, to evaluate my suggestion?

1 Like
18

This forum was set up several years ago so that customers could help other customers with the SmartThings home automation system. It’s not officially monitored by SmartThings staff, except for controlling harassment and spam.

To get a suggestion to Samsung itself, you have several options

  1. send it in by an official support ticket. But I think that’s better for addressing glitches then entirely new features or architecture suggestions.

  2. post it on one of the public facing smartthings accounts like Facebook or Twitter/X. Those will at least be seen by marketing staff, and may even get a higher up’s attention.

  3. start a conversation with one of the influential technology bloggers. If they mention an issue, Samsung may care because it might affect their buzz reputation.

But remember who Samsung‘s real target audience is: the people who buy their expensive smart televisions and appliances. Not the people who are buying Homey or hubitat.

SmartThings staff has long said publicly that the vast majority of their customers have 15 or fewer devices and never use custom code. And the vast majority of those don’t have a standalone hub at all. If they have a hub, it’s one that came built-in to one of their Samsung brand devices.

So those customers, who are the most profitable ones to the company, are never going to run into memory issues with custom edge drivers: they don’t use custom edge drivers. They probably don’t even use a standalone hub.

So the people in this forum are a small minority of a small minority of smartthings users. We can commiserate with each other on what we’d like to see, but it’s not likely to influence Samsung itself very much. :man_shrugging:t2:

2 Likes
19

Another option is to leave a review on the appropriate app store for your mobile device. I’ve had luck with another platform communicating that way. As JD says, marketing folks are more likely to see it. They (and the Product Managers) are more likely to influence product direction…

4 Likes
20

Thank you for your advice.

I will try to look for one of your suggestions.
I just noticed, that a Samsung representative sometimes appair in some chats, and reply she talks to technical department.

I do not agree that Samsung don’t see the ‘small minority’ as important.
They would not change the architecture and recently make the ‘backup’ function, hub replace, if hub users where not important for them. Why should they spend money on that, the old architecture was fine for smaller setups for their refrigerator and TV hubs, and small setups for 10-15 devices don’t require ‘backups’.
Actually, at least in Denmark, target audience for smart dishwasher, washing machines, and fridges, are actually the same audience as buying Homey. Homey is considered easier and better than other smarthome systems here. Hubitat on the other hand is not very popular here.

1 Like