Evolve LSM-15 double tap


(Ian D) #1

I’ve just installed a couple of Evolve LSM-15 wall switches and I’m having the same issue as reported here:

Now… I’ve installed Pollster and it does eventually report the switch status, but a minute wait is not really acceptable for my use. I’ve noticed that a manual double tap of the switch does triggers the on/off event immediately without the need of Pollster. So there must be a way to get single taps behave the same way… Did anybody figured that one out?

I suppose that until we get the Hub v2 that can run things locally, having Pollster run every few seconds instead of a full minute would be abusive?

Thanks


#2

There’s a patent issue involved. lutron holds the patent on any lighting system that does instant update from the switch to the network controller. This applies to zigbee, zwave, and a couple of other protocols.

This is just a fact. some lighting device manufacturers have licensed the Lutron patent, like Cooper, and therefore they can do instant status updates to the hub.

Other lighting device manufacturers have two ways of getting around this. One has to do with Association groups, but it appears that this is not processed for update status by smartthings.

The other way is to have the hub query the device. That is what pollster does.

Here’s the thing: mesh networks like zwave and zigbee are intended for low traffic networks. Individual devices are pretty dumb, and often sleeping if they are battery operated. The network as a whole is very robust precisely because the hub doesn’t panic if it doesn’t hear from an individual device for a little while. Messages are allowed to bounce around the network and try alternate message routes.

In commercial networks, a typical rule of thumb for a mesh network is to limit polling to 5% of total traffic. However, for local processing in your own home, if you want to poll more often, that’s up to you. Because you are so dramatically increasing total traffic on your network, you do run the risk of lost or delayed messages, and also increase the risk that messages will arrive out of sequence. But again your choice.

When your system is dependent on cloud services, though, then all those polling requests create traffic for the cloud as well. So the cloud services provider may put limits on how often you can do Polling.

Phillips, for example, even though it’s local processing, limits polling from the huge bridge, and basically updates status about every 15 minutes. The assumption is that for human beings if they’re in the room, they can see whether the light is on or not. If they’re not in the room, The fact that the status panel is slightly out of sync with the actual physical lights probably doesn’t matter much.

If you have a use case which requires absolutely precise constant monitoring of an end device, then you probably should be using something other than a mesh network. Wi-Fi in a star network, Bluetooth as point-to-point are both good for this purpose.

For Zigbee lights, I would myself tend to follow the experts, in this case Phillips, and poll each device once every 15 minutes. But that’s just me.

Meanwell, regarding this particular switch, the double tap is used you need to join or leave a network. It’s treated differently by the device itself than a single tap. So it’s not surprising if you can’t do the same thing with a single tap.

http://www.armd-solutions.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Evolve-LSM-15.pdf


(Ian D) #3

In my use case the switch is not connected to any load. I just want a physical tap to the switch to trigger an ST app that do whatever I want such as turning on/off Hue bulbs.

When people press a light switch, they expect the lights to turn on/off immediately, they don’t want to wait a minute.

These switches should at the very least clearly mention in their specifications if they licensed the Lutron patent or not. As they are the Evolve switches are a waste of money for me.

I’m aware that some wall switches have been made for that particular use case such as the WT00Z, but I like the idea of a switch that can control a load if I need it to down the road.

Anyway… enough ranting… Thanks JDRoberts for the explanation.


#4

There are a couple of other options that will give you near instant control if you want to consider those. The Lutron patent only covers actual light switches.

  1. The Aeon Minimote or the Aon key fob are both on the official “works with smart” product list, and are legally considered “handheld remote,” not light switches. So the patent doesn’t apply. You can assign a hello home action to one of the buttons, and use that to turn your smart lights on or off.

  2. Motion detectors are not covered by the Lutron patent. These are very popular means of turning lights on. I use one in a box on the shelf as a touchless switch to trigger a hello home action. This method could be combined with the Zwave switch you have. Use the motion detector to turn on the lights, nearly instantly. But turn them off with the zwave switch. This retains load control, like you wanted, and usually people are okay if the off takes a little bit longer then the on.

  3. the SmartenIt three toggle switch also counts as a handheld controller, although it can also be wall-mounted. It’s not loadbearing, though.

  4. A contact sensor is also not covered by the Lutron patent. There may be some situations where it could serve to trigger the hello home action.

Anyway, those are just a few of the possibilities, in case they spark any ideas.


(Geo Philips) #5

Hi JD,

I am new to all this but I have the same dimmer and an Aeon Minimote. I didnt get how using the minimote would resolve the issue of infrequent status updates.

Could you explain a bit more when you have time?

Cheers and much appreciated


#6

Sorry if that wasn’t clear. The short answer is that the Minimote doesn’t change how fast the dimmer switch reports. But if you use the Minimote to control the dimmer, the Minimote isn’t bound by the Lutron patent, so it reports immediately. So you use the dimmer to physically control the load to the lamp, but give instructions to the dimmer by pressing the Minimote buttons, not the wall switch. Not the solution most people want, though.

You can also use the Minimote to directly associate two zwave devices (this is a one time step) which is helpful for reducing lag between an aux and a master, but often makes the status tile problem worse.

So it all depends on the exact issue you’re trying to solve and what your priorities are.


(Geo Philips) #7

Thanks @JDRoberts. That makes it clear.

My situation really was to trigger activities on other dimmers based on the switching on and off of a particular dimmer. Now, through the app, I guess I can accomplish that through Hello Home actions, but if anyone was to manually switch the dimmer on and off, there is no way to trigger that same action through ST.

Are virtual 3 way switches/dimmers subject to the same restrictions?


#8

Two separate questions. In reverse order:

  1. the patent only applies to physical devices, not virtual.

  2. the Big Switch smartapp (in the Convenience section of MORE in Smart Setup in the ST mobile app) lets you slave any switch (virtual or physical) to another. It will turn off Switch B after Switch A turns off (assuming both are smart switches). It’s just a question of how long the lag is.

If both switches are physical and support direct association, you can slave one to the other with the Minimote. (One time setup.) after they are associated, this allows the master to tell the aux to turn on/off without having to go back to the hub first. Very fast. But means the hub may not know the status changed for awhile.