Questions about SmartThings WiFi Mesh System

Devices & Integrations Connected Things
21

JD, I did send the model number; it was in response to another message. It is ET-WV525. The tag on the back says something about z-wave plus. Im sorry you didn’t see the other post.

I think I have missed something here, but it may be too late anyway. In a fit of frustration, after having tried to reconnect by every way I could imagine (including moving one of the sub-hubs) I tried to do an exclude. That didn’t work either. Ultimately I just went into the API and deleted the outlet.

Any other suggestions (before I go out and purchase a new 50 Ethernet cable?
Todd

22

Hummmmm. Z-Wave Plus repeater device along the route. Given the age of some of the Z-Wave devices on the property, that may not exist. I don’t recall seeing anything on the API that would give me a hint that any of the local z-wave devices are “plus”. Am I hearing that this might be a situation where a Z-Wave PLUS repeater might be a good thing to add to the network?

Not having the tools I had in a previous incarnation, I can only fall back to projections as to who is closest. In the same room as this particular outlet (which is a hardwired outlet in a standard 2x4 box), I have one SmartThings Outlet (IM-6001 series), one wall switch (old style GE paddle switch) and one Iris by Lowe’s Garage Door opener. Where the mesh goes from here is at best: guess work. For all of that, it is probably worth noting that the primary SmartThings hub (AKA “Office”) is located perhaps 12 feet horizontally, and 16 feet below the specific outlet in question. Yes, I can figure out that is probably 20 feet, though a concrete floor.

Should I understand there is another solution, other than purchasing more Ethernet cable to support the tempory relocation of the “office” hub?
Thanks for you comments
Todd

23

Sorry for any confusion. When I said “end device” that means anything except the hub. A switch, an outlet, a sensor, etc.

If you give us the model numbers of the Z wave devices that you are trying to reconnect to the hub, we can tell you whether you should be able to do them in place if you have a proper backbone built. So you wouldn’t have to move the hub at all.

Did you get a chance to read the wireless range and repeaters FAQ yet? Because then we can talk about what the backbone is that you have for your mesh. :sunglasses:

24

None of those are a model number. :disappointed_relieved:

Seriously, first rule of home automation: “the model number matters.“

But if it’s a SmartThings branded device, it’s not Z wave at all: it’s zigbee Which could explain a lot of the problems you’re having, since neither a zwave exclude nor a zwave repeater will help if it’s a zigbee device. :disappointed_relieved:

You should be able to get the model numbers by querying the devices if they aren’t already in the device list in the IDE. (I know you keep saying “API“, and maybe @tgauchat or one of the other grandmaster coders can say more about that. There is an API which is used for third-party integrations. But the cloud interface that is available to customers for access to their account information is called “the IDE” and is at https://account.smartthings.com/. )

Anyway, I’m tired now, so I will let other people carry on the conversation.

But the point is if the device that you were trying to re-add is a zwave plus device and you have a path for that device all the way back to the hub that consists of only Z wave plus devices, you will probably be able to pair in place. That’s a new feature that was introduced with zwave plus.

( I don’t code at all these days, or read code, since I have multiple vision issues. I was a network engineer and worked with both zwave and Zigbee before ever getting a SmartThings system for my own use, so I tend to be more interested in communication protocols and hardware specifications than most of the people in the community. :sunglasses: )

25

Also, the concrete floor is probably killing the signal completely in that direction. It’s really hard to get signal through concrete.

26

First, I understand you may be “cooked for tonight”, so I will not look for a reply till morning.

That being said, I want to make sure I know what data to recover from the API device list. I think you are looking for this type of information:

GE Wall Switch Device Under bookcase west light

  • MSR: 0063-4952-3033
  • manufacturer: Jasco Products

(It would be nice if it were possible to add a column to the list and then down load the list.)

If this data could be useful to resolving my situation, I can collect it. Would you want ALL of the z-wave devices, or only those that appear to be potential repeater candidates?

I understand the reading/coding discussion. I avoid coding when at all possible because I am having trouble reading things also. BUT I AM NOT DEAD YET!

Anyway, thanks for your consideration and ideas where to look.
Todd

27

So, I provided the “shortest” path (through the concrete). Fortunately, there are ways around the concrete, but they probably all include at least 3 (if not 4) hops. So I guess the question then is: which has more resistance: one 4" slab of concrete (probably with rebar), or 4 hops that will go around the concrete slab, but would also include at least one 4" sheet rock wall (probably two walls). It is my understanding that these Z-Wave mesh networks should be able to determine the most efficient path of travel when more that two devices are involved???
Todd

28

So collecting the “model numbers” isn’t going to be quite as easy as I was hoping. IRIS helped at one point and provided this (subset of a much larger table), but it doesn not (for the most part) give specific model numbers of the various devices. The primary objective is the garage.

Moisture Detection Sensor Sensor battery 1 Utilitech Water Leak Detector 422363 TST01-1
Master Suite Todd’s Overhead Light Switch AC 1 GE Light Switch multiple multiple
Master Suite Virginia’s Overhead Light Switch AC 1 GE Light Switch multiple multiple
Office Overhead Light Light Switch AC 1 GE Light Switch multiple multiple
Office Todd’s Overhead Light Light Switch AC 1 GE Light Switch multiple multiple
Office Under case east Light Switch AC 1 GE Light Switch multiple multiple
Office Under case west Light Switch AC 1 GE Light Switch multiple multiple
Office Virginia’s Overhead Light Light Switch AC 1 GE Light Switch multiple multiple
Smoke Detector Sensor installed battery 1 First Alert Smoke Detector 505522 Zsmoke
Sewing Room Overhead Light Switch AC 1 GE Light Switch multiple multiple
UMS Corner light dimmer switch AC 1 GE Dimmer Switch multiple multiple
UMS Todd’s sidelight installed outlet AC 1 GE Electrical Outlet multiple multiple
UMS Virginia’s sidelight installed outlet AC 1 GE Electrical Outlet multiple multiple
Kitchen Night Light (light over desk) installed outlet AC 1 GE Electrical Outlet multiple multiple
Diningroom Chandelier dimmer switch AC 1 GE Dimmer Switch multiple multiple
Diningroom Curio Cabineet Plug-In Switch AC 1 GE Plug-in Switch 650031 12719222
Living room Light bell lamp Plug-In Switch AC 1 GE Plug-In Switch 650031 1271922
Living room light curio cabinet Plug-in Dimmer Switch AC 1 GE Dimmer Switch ZW3010
Living room light north wall Plug-In Switch AC 1 GE Plug-In Switch 650031 12719222
Living room light west wall north Plug-In Switch AC 1 GE Plug-In Switch 650031 1271922
Living room front door lock installed battery 1 910 TRL ZW 11P SMTCP
Outside Front Flag Light (switch on post at golf cart) Light Switch AC 1 GE Light Switch multiple multiple
Outside Party Lights Back (switch on deck) Light Switch AC 1 GE Light Switch multiple multiple
Outside Party Lights Front (outlet on SE corner outside) installed outlet AC 1 GE Electrical Outlet multiple multiple
Outside Party Lights Rope on stairs (plug under deck) installed outlet AC 1 GE Electrical Outlet multiple multiple
Outside Porch Back (switch in kitchen) Light Switch AC 1 GE Light Switch multiple multiple
Outside Porch Front (switch in living room) Light Switch AC 1 GE Light Switch multiple multiple
Garage Door Controller installed AC 1 Iris Garage Door 589237 GD-00Z-1
Garage Door Power installed outlet AC 1 GE Electrical Outlet multiple multiple
Garage Overhead Lights Light Switch AC 1 GE Light Switch multiple multiple

I guess I will start collecting the information I sent in the previous communication in the morning.
T

29
30

I’m a little late to the party and JD and Terry have seemed to answer most of your questions. The only contribution I can make is that the SmartThings mesh WiFi 3 pack EV-WV535K does indeed function as Zwave repeaters. Each hub operates as a repeater. Therefore, if you place each hub at various locations around your home, they will be able to carry your Zwave signal, regardless of where the hub is that’s connected via Ethernet to your modem.

I’m not sure if this is the info you were seeking. I kind of lost track in all the details.

3 Likes
31

I can’t make sense of that table (my limitation, not yours. Text to speech dependent), but here’s the short answer.

Zigbee repeats only for zigbee. Zwave repeats only for Z wave. So if you’re trying to get connection to a zwave device, just leave any zigbee devices out of the calculation altogether.

1) if the end device is zwave plus

If the device is Z wave plus and there is a path back to the hub which is zwave plus all the Way, then you should be able to pair it in place. So one option might be to get one or two zwave plus repeating Devices which are easily movable, typically a plug-in pocket socket, and use them to create pathways to your distant Z wave plus devices. (Each time you physically move the pocket sockets you will need to run a Z wave repair to update all the address tables.)

I would recommend the zooz zen25 model for the pocket sockets just because it’s a really nice model, is relatively inexpensive, and even has S2 support.

2) if the end device is Z wave classic and you either have a minimote or can borrow one

If the end device is Z wave classic, you can’t pair it In place. So you either need to bring the hub to it, bring it to the hub, or use a secondary controller just to include it.

The aeotec minimote was perfect for this, But since a lot of things changed with zwave plus, it can’t include zwave plus devices and the minimote itself has since been discontinued.

But if you already have one or can borrow one, you can use it to exclude/include classic devices to your SmartThings network. Again, don’t try it with a Z wave plus device, it won’t set things up correctly. And I wouldn’t try to buy one now, they are wildly expensive and often the batteries are dead anyway.

But if you do happen to have one, it’s an easy solution for this situation.

image

3) if the end device is zwave classic and you don’t already have a minimote

Then it’s just going to be tedious. Particularly since you have the Wi-Fi mesh model of the hub.

It’s back to either the 50 foot ethernet cord, or bringing the device closer to the hub and pairing it there. Which I know is a pain for light switches.

So it can be done, just not conveniently. :disappointed_relieved:

1 Like
32

Whoooo! While I want to say that is what I thought/expected/hopes for, it is not a consistent answer from the chorus (although the chorus is not singing with one voice either). Is you answered based on real world imperial evidence? or is it based on what appears to be happening. My point is that if this were true, I would have expected that I should have been able to re-pair my outlet when I moved the “sub-hub” closer to the outlet. Or I would have expected when I rebuild the network (three times over three days) that it would have rejoined the network. Neither worked out. While I WANT your answer to be true, it doesn’t fit the evidence. Is it possible that my efforts to rejoin the network were faulty?
Todd

33

I’m not sure where the confusion is, but @Its2loud is saying exactly the same thing that @tgauchat and I have been saying throughout this entire thread. Also exactly the same thing that is in the community FAQ linked to from this thread.

The sub hubs for your model work as a Z wave repeater in exactly the same way as any other Z wave repeating device placed in that physical location would work.

( that was not true of the first iteration of the previous model of the WiFi mesh model, but eventually they did change that.)

If the end device is not a zwave plus device, then it cannot be paired just with a repeating device. It has to initially be paired to the primary hub. Once the primary hub has assigned it a network ID, then it can be further away and use repeaters to reach the primary hub.

Which outlet are we talking about?

34

Good Morning JD,
Thank you for your suggestions. IRIS was not willing to allow a alternate control (or secondary control) to be on their network so I have lost track of the GE hand held controller I once had. (It was probabily NOT PLUS, anyway). And since installation of control system installation is not a service I advertise, I have no friends in the business who might have a minimote (but it sounds like a great idea).
That being said, building an alternate pathway around the garage floor sounds like a “no cost” option. Are the Samsung Pocket Sockets (previously referenced) z-wave plus?(I have several of those.) I could temporarily relocate a couple of those to provide a more efficient path to the disconnected outlet, but then I will be back to the basic question “can I make a new connection based on indirect connection to the z-wave hub?” I suppose it cant hurt to try. The old connection what was listed on the Samsung API is gone.
Todd

35

I’m going to put this in a separate post because it’s a really important concept, and you need to understand it in order to understand pretty much everything else we’ve been discussing so far.

When a Z wave device first joins a zwave network, the process which is called “inclusion,“ The primary Z wave controller, in this case the primary smartthings hub, Will assign a network ID. The network ID will become that device’s address in order to receive messages on the network.

This assignment only happens once, when the end device first joins the network.

If you “exclude“ the device so that it leaves the network, then it no longer has a network ID for that network.

Then when you pair it again, it gets a new network ID. ( unless you use the zwave “replace“ utility which we have not been talking about so far.)

Only The primary hub can assign a network ID to a new device. Subhubs cannot. Repeaters cannot.

The fact that the subhub can act as Z wave repeater doesn’t give it the ability to assign a network ID to a new device. That’s why it can’t do an initial pairing for a new device.

Zwave plus Devices and adding a new device to the network

Z wave plus devices have a new feature where if a new zwave plus device is close enough to a zwave plus repeater it can ask that repeater to request a new network ID from the primary controller as part of inclusion.

So the primary hub still issues the new ID, but it gets passed down the line to the end device at the time of joining.

But that can only happen if all three of the devices: the primary hub, the repeating device, and the end device, are all zwave plus. And so far the end devices that you have described are Z wave classic, not Z wave plus. So they could not take advantage of this.

Summary: just being a zwave repeater does not make a subhub able to pass out new network IDs

Did that help clear up the confusion? Because you keep talking about a repeater as though that changes the way initial inclusion works, but it doesn’t if any of the devices along the message path are Z wave classic instead of Z wave plus.

2 Likes
36

As mentioned upthread, as of the time of this writing all of the Samsung brand devices are zigbee, not zwave. So they have nothing to do with your Z wave devices and cannot help with the process of inclusion in any way. :disappointed_relieved:

37

Yes and Yes.

JD, do you know for sure that the Mesh WiFi will only allow pairing from one particular hub from the 3 pack? I haven’t experienced that. Although, I haven’t been trying to pair anything that is Zwave classic.

38

OK, I think I get it. While the SmartThing hubs will repeat z-wave commands, only the primary hub will issue z-wave commands. and evidently the sub-hubs do not repeat “join” commands well.

I have one more option that I want to explore: I have a GE, “Smart Outlet”, still in the sealed box. I can find no indication if it might be Z-Wave Plus or not. Of course it “works with iris” and has a inventory number on the box 12721, the only logo on the box suggests it is Z-wave ONLY. Of course it works with everything (smile).

Any thoughts? I could install this and try to get it to join. If the problem is that the old outlet has died, we would solve that problem. We wouldn’t have answered the question about PLUS, but at least the outlet would be functional again. If it doesn’t work, I wouldn’t be any worse for wear than I am now.
Todd

39

It’s always possible that they’ve changed things again, they were doing a lot with the Z wave platform last month.

If it was a Z wave plus end device, then it’s no problem. That’s a feature of Z wave plus, that you can pair in place even if the device is more than one hop away from the primary controller, provided every device along the path is zwave plus.

But if you are saying that the subhubs are now acting as true zwave secondary controllers, not just zwave repeaters, and can include a new Z wave classic device that is more than 1 hop from the primary hub, then that’s something new. :sunglasses:

@Kianoosh_Karami

40

Every zwave device on the network can “issue Z wave commands.“

The problem is that a device that is new to the network does not yet have a network ID, and that has to be assigned by the primary hub acting as the SIS.

Again, don’t confuse the process of inclusion with repeating. They are two separate functions.