Recommendation: dual switch and dimmer (Spain)

In Moes shop there is this model.
I have not tested It.

Dimmer need push mechanism, it doesn’t work with toggle switch dumb.

Others opción for dimming is use smart bulbs instead dimmers

The Aeotec dimmer can work with a toggle switch, but it won’t dim FROM the wall switch. It will just toggle between its last dim setting and off. If you want it brighter or dimmer, you have to adjust it through the app or by voice or by routine.

As far as a Moes dimmer, the issue with all of the Tuya-based Zigbee devices, regardless of brand, is that they use some unique proprietary code, not just standard Zigbee. If you search the forum you’ll find many people saying they can’t quite get their particular model to work. And sometimes it’s the same model number that someone else has working, but the firmware has changed so the results are different.

They are still popular because of the cost, but they can be a lot more work to set up. :thinking:

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BTW, @Mariano_Colmenarejo is one of the community members who has been writing new Edge Drivers, so definitely an expert on their current practical use. :wink:

His channel includes an Edge Driver for the Sonoff ZBMini , so if he says it’s not working well, he would definitely know.

[Beta] Zigbee Edge Driver compatible with Lidl, Ecosmart, Osram, SmartThings & Others

Whether that’s going to be a permanent issue with that model or whether the problems are because Edge is still in beta is something we won’t know for awhile.

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Although some users only know how to demand and criticize, I think Drive Edge is a great job from smartthings for driving this platform forward.

His great work with the stock libraries makes creating Zigbee Controllers so easy that even a hobbyist like me can do it.

For manufacturers and developers who want to open this market to their products, they will have it much easier, if they want

Let’s hope they do !!!

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Let me try to sum up from acurremt edge point of view:

  • Sonoff does not work well
  • Tuya:
    • Switch works very well
    • Dimmer, we don’t know. In case it does, cannot work with dumb switches
  • Aeotec: switch and dimmer should work well. Dimmer can work with dumb switches.

Is that correct?

Regarding smart lights, I assume that need smart switch. Otherwise I should left dumb switch on, shouldn’t I?

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For Tuya, there are many different models from many different manufacturers.

Some of them work well. Some do not. Sometimes the devices will have the same model number but different firmware and one will work well and one will not.

Tuya creates the basic device but then the individual brands put their name on it and make some changes.

So the one you get might work or might not.

If by “smart lights” you mean “smart bulbs,” then yes.

The exception is the Sengled brand which were specifically made to work with dumb switches.

They are not Zigbee repeaters, so turning one off at the switch does not hurt your network.

They were engineered to tolerate inrush current better than most smart bulbs do.

However: if you turn a Sengled bulb off with a dumb switch, you must turn it on again with the dumb switch before it will work with home automation again. You cannot turn it off with a dumb switch and then turn it on with the app or voice or a routine. Some people are OK with that, some are not.

Also note that the Sengled Bluetooth models do not work with SmartThings. The Sengled Element models, which are Zigbee, do work with SmartThings. The product description for the Zigbee models may say that you need their gateway, but you do not: you will use a smartthings hub instead.

But for all the other brands of smart bulbs, you must get a smart switch which is specifically designed NOT to cut current to the bulb, but instead communicate by radio. Or just leave the dumb switch on all the time.

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Then I’ll by the ones Mariano_Colmenarejo recommend to be sure they work.

Smart bulbs would not be as useful as it should for my family (even the Sengled ones), so I’ll go for the aeotec dimmer since is the simplest solution.

Thank you all!!

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@Bralok,

There is already a developer who has made an edge driver for the Moes dimmer

That specific model does require a neutral wire, though. :thinking:

Hi @Bralok
Regarding Girier module you posted

Please be aware that it does not notifies the hub when you use the physical (dumb) switch, attached to it. That means, the hub would need periodically poll the module state in order to show the correct position. It is OK for a couple of switches, but it would create a substantial load on Zigbee network for large number of devices.
And it also requires neutral wire

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Thanks for the hint, Mariano_Colmenajero. 2 questions here:

  1. @JDRoberts, my light installation has neutral but not ground. Since Mariano_Colmenarejo also pointed the neutral requirement I’m curious. How the electricity “returns” if an installation has no neutral wire?

  2. @ygerlovin, @Mariano_Colmenarejo , can this device work with dumb switch or dumb dimmer is required?

Thanks

I forgot one thing more, @ygerlovin , would this device also pull the network?

I know how it works for US wiring. I don’t know if it’s different for European wiring.

In US wiring, The switch is just a cut in the circuit that runs from the mains power to the light fitting. It opens the cut and it closes the cut.

If the neutral wire is not at the switchbox, it’s somewhere else on that same circuit, usually at the light fitting. So the current returns from that point.

In the case of a dimmer, the design allows it to change the amount of current which is let through to the light fitting. More current means a brighter lamp. But otherwise it’s the same idea.

For a smart device, the radio inside that device, whether it is a smart bulb or a module, has to have power all the time or it can’t hear the next network command.

If the smart device is an on/off relay, then typically it will get its power for the radio from the neutral wire.

If the smart device is a dimmer, it is possible with some models to borrow a tiny bit of power from the hot line, so that there isn’t enough power to make the lamp light up, but there is still enough power for the radio. But the device has to be designed to do that. And not all of them are.

Again, though, I’m not an electrician, and I don’t know if it’s different in other countries.

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It is hard to tell without knowing the exact model and even then there could be firmware differences.
However, Moes devices are not known to have such problem. They have another issue though, some devices have a firmware that implements Tuya specific protocol, while others implements a standard (or close to it).
This particular device looks like ms-104, which should be OK, but I would suggest to order only one and see wether it works OK. If it does, then order more from the same seller

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All modern electrical installations have Ground, Neutral and Phase (1, 2 or 3 phases). Normally in a house they are 1 Phase, Neutral and Ground (monophasic). In Spain 220V of alternating current.
We could say that the neutral is grounded in the power plant generator.

If you measure with a multimeter the voltage between the phase and the neutral and the phase and the ground is exactly the same.

If these measurements are different, it may be an indication that your grounding installation is faulty and you could lose protection against electrical shunts.

Grounding wire is for user safety.

If an electrical appliance, washer,… has a shunt from the phase to its chassis, the current that must flow from the phase to the neutral and vice versa, since it is alternating current, return in part to the wired ground and the differential switch in the panel of the the installation will detect that the input current (L) differs from the return current (N) by more than 30 mA and will trip the general switch of the installation.

If You do not have a ground wire, the current derived from the chassis does not flow to ground wire and the differential switch will not detect a difference in input and return current until you touch the appliance with your hand and the derived current passes through your body. At that moment, the differential switch will save your life when more than 30 mA pass through your body.

The switches cut and connect the phase that goes to the bulb and the neutral is always present on the other terminal of the bulb.

If the Neutral is not in the switch box to power the device, you can look for it in the junction box that is usually higher on the way to the bulb.

When you want to use a device without Neutral, what happens is that the device changes the mechanical relay for an electronic switch with an adjustable high impedance (triac or thyristor) and uses the neutral that comes through the resistance of the bulb to feed the electronic circuits of the device.

These dimmers require that the bulbs be of the incandescent type, allogen … so that the neutral can reach the device.
If you are going to use led type bulbs, which have an electronic circuit, it must be of the dimmable type and a capacitor may be necessary in parallel with the bulb so that part of the neutral current can pass through the capacitor to the device. There are certificates like this one from fibaro, but if you search on the internet you will still find cheaper.

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Than you all for such detailed explanations.

@Mariano_Colmenarejo , I meant that I don’t have ground wire in the switch box but I do have it in the junction box. Regarding firmware comment from ygerlovin, the link you provided is for the same seller you bought your devices? Otherwise, I guess I should buy jut one and try.

@ygerlovin , this one looks like the Moes MS-105Z dimmer, right?

And what about this?

Would they work with dumb switches?

Regards.

Yes, i bougt in this AliExpress Moes official store.

You have in Amazon too, to 22.99€ switch and 26.99€ dimmer, if you need to try prior to purchase more quantity

MOES Interruptor Tuya ZigBee 3.0 Inteligente conmutador Inalambrico Módulo Alexa Control Remoto y Rele RF433 para Interruptores de 1 Gang y 1/2 Way, compatible con la app Smart Life Tuya Google Home https://www.amazon.es/dp/B08KZK69NR/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_i_PFVQV9DJ2S2J4F6RMRHF

Device in Amazon is ZM-105-MS

@Bralok

Yes, the one gang dimmer looks like MS-105Z.
Please note, my driver does not support 2 gang version

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Great, I’ll buy those then.

Thanks, I just need 1 gang version.

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