Some ‘i’'s are not related to the Labs, which makes it even more confusing. Generally, I feel that the “Labs” has become a dumping ground of half-baked and abandoned projects. Some of them have been in the “Labs” for over a year. I’d say a major cleanup is in order. If the project does not come out of the Lab for say six month, it probably should be officially closed.
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Looks good. But with the experience I had so far with that kind of integration, I just can’t invest on something like that knowing that at one point the integration WILL get broken.
I guess I should just stick to pure Z-Wave/ZigBee device where the integration doesn’t depend on a third party not changing anything in his infrastructure.
This actually remove a lot of interesting point for SmartThins from my point of view.
Now I’ll have to find a Z-Wave/ZigBee sensor that actually support really cold temperature…
So something has to be 100% implemented to be integrated?
ST is an automation platform. So being able to use the ST logic to turn on or off or even change colors on a hue bulb should be good enough. Why should the ST version of hue, replicate all the features the hue app already has?
There can be further enhancements to the integration, but basic automation of hue can be done…
I don’t see many posts in the hue forums talking about the fact that hue can’t automate my coffee maker. (Granted they don’t advertise they can)
Automation is meant to exist at a basic, transparent level. Do your normal routines using the default apps, but what you automate should happen behind the scenes.
Too many people fall into the trap that HA should replace the native UI for devices. It should not be the core mission of ST to waste time recreating a UI/UX for apps that already exist. Basic functionality is all that is needed to get started.
If you want a replacement ui, fork over the cash for crestron or control4 and have a dealer do it for you.
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While I understand and respect this position, personally I have a different philosophy.
If I buy a universal remote, I am not satisfied if it is limited to turning the TV on/off. I want to be able to change channels, control volume, pause and rewind.
In fact I’ll go further and say that, yes, I do want the universal remote to replicate all the functionality of the existing TV remote, and add more besides.
That’s exactly what Harmony does. It took my basket of remotes (TV, DVD, DVR, Roku) and combined them in one, with the added ability to create multi device activities and toggle smart lights.
I want exactly that from my home automation. Combine all the features of the individual device controllers, plus give me the ability to create multi device rules. For exactly the same reasons I wanted it in the universal A/V remote.
There’s more than one philosophy on this, and room for different products to meet those philosophies.
But I think we can all agree the first step is for the manufacturers to recognise the different philosophies exist and be honest and detailed about what their product provides. Is it one more in a basket of remotes? Or is it a universal remote with customizable button mapping? Customer satisfaction for both will go up when prepurchase expectations are set appropriately.
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And to add to the discussion about the “compatible products” page, if they just used three tiny icons, “I” for information like “acts as a repeater,” “L” for “in testing in SmartThings Labs” and “B” for “basic support; some advanced/custom functions not supported” and had a call-out explanation for the icon categories at the bottom of the page, that would help a lot.
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And let me guess you only want to pay 99 bucks for it?
You can get all this today, just not cheap.
The ultimate question will be can others play nice together via open standards or will the big guys keep the keys to the castle.
I have one ui for everything in my control4 setup. It cost me a fortune to implement.
Trying to get ST to do this at sub 1k price range is like trying to race a Porsche while on a bicycle. Sure it may appear you are lighter, cheaper and might get off the line a few feet ahead, but ultimately the Porsche will spin up its turbo and blow the bike out of the water.
We want it all, I understand that more than anyone. But being disappointed that ST doesn’t do this or that is pointless. Heck I’m surprised it does anything given how cheap and open it is. That is why I support ST. It is a huge cost saver for me as I slowly migrate pieces of my HA over and work to integrate ST into control4.
Patience is required or deep pockets.
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At the very least they should tell you the limitations.
I don’t need an interface for the product. Their integration fails more than it succeeds for me. So many times the bulbs don’t turn on, off, or change colors when using their default apps. Not to mention, to set up a scene of different colors would mean you would have to install their app for each bulb multiple times. It’s very messy. So the answer is to develop an app and when you have a problem clearly not related to the app, they won’t help you because you’re using a custom app.
Focusing on the bulbs is just one of the many problems I experience with ST. I often experience delays with mode changes and motion events while using their stock apps. Every time I open a problem report they tell me it’s not on their side. In general my frustrations may be less if their product worked better, or their support didn’t leave me feeling helpless.
I understand the price point issue. Again, if the manufacturers would be clear about what they’re offering, everyone would be happier. (I have not once heard ST top management say they’re not intending to give customers everything Control4 provides, in fact, pretty much the opposite.)
As for what I personally expected, I wasn’t 100% sure. It was clear the $99 one time purchase price couldn’t cover what they were offering once you factor in support, so it’s a loss leader of some sort. With the Samsung acquisition, I assumed they were buying buzz and the name.
What I did expect for $99 was what the CTO specifically stated: that if the lights didn’t come on, ST would be the last thing I would expect to have caused the problem. And that a schedule that worked on Monday would work on Tuesday. Maybe a limited feature set, but still a generally reliable one. That has been the biggest area of disappointment for me.
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So it begs the question, what price would you pay for reliable systems? $499? $4999 $49999?
It is about price, ultimately. Sure they advertise a stable platform and they should be held to that, but adding 3rd parties to the mix and users doing all the programming creates variables ST can’t control.
If ST had a premium service that had an SLA and would refund money if it was missed, how much would you pay for guaranteed reliability or fully fleshed out 3rd party integrations?
Me, personally?
I’ve mentioned before my summer 2016 project budget is $3500 for limited environmental control. Systems do exist now that would do this, but they cost about $8,000.
For that budget, I want:
1 touchpad deadbolt with auto relock and touchless option from both sides of the door (I have an existing zwave lock which, if used, would not count against the $3500)
Lights in 8 rooms with both voice and local control, but these are cheap lights, mostly $15 GE smart bulbs in $15 table lamps, plus 3 smart wall switches. (Cost of Amazon Echo not counted against the $3500. The existing lamps can be reused without counting against the $3500. The switches would be new.)
Geopresence, but not micro-location. (I have an existing iPhone and 4 Ibeacons which can be reused without counting against the $3500.)
Voice control of A/V system
Integration with Harmony for one room (cost of harmony not counted against the $3500)
As much Echo integration as we can get, but potentially limited
One touch options from Apple Watch for some things .(cost of AppleWatch not counted against the $3500)
Preferably IFTTT integration, but that’s optional
Two pressure mats used for microlocation control
One networked window air conditioner, but doesn’t have to be fancy. (Cost of air conditioner not counted against the $3500, but cost of networking add ons is)
One video doorbell
4 contact sensors
Rules engine (.that universal remote.) that runs on an iPad (ipad cost not counted against the $3500). Must be able to schedule from sunrise, sunset, and zip code weather conditions.
Integration with 4 Flic or equivalent Dog-friendly physical button controls (I have 4 Flics already on order. If they can be reused, they don’t count against the $3500)
Unlike many people, I’m not planning to trigger events from motion, light, moisture or humidity sensors, which reduces my costs.
Note that security system components are not required, I have a separate system for that with a separate budget. I also don’t need garage door control or automated door openers. And I don’t need a thermostat or window covering controls or window actuators for this phase.
So that’s pretty much it. Lights, deadbolt, video doorbell, contact sensors, air conditioner, and A/V controls, all local and by voice. Harmony, Echo, Philips, Apple Watch integration required, IFTTT preferred but optional.
Depends in part on how much can be reused and how many repeaters are required. But I wouldn’t be surprised if the controller alone cost $1500.
As far as monthly fees, I’d be willing to pay $40/month if the rules engine was good and I got really good integrated voice control as described above.
Ultimately I’d like to add an automatic door opener on several doors, but that’s a separate project and doesn’t really have to be integrated.
Again, though, I benchmark against environmental control units for quads, so it’s a particular niche.
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Like I said, it’s a standalone system. It will work with or without SmartThings. I can have it talk directly to my thermostat (or anything with an http interface), as well as IFTTT.
I am way beyond buying into anything anymore that does not provide an open and documented API. WST fits the bill nicely.
What’s wrong with 99 bucks? It’s actually 20 bucks more than Staples Connect and 30 bucks more than Apple TV, both very solid and reliable platforms for their respective intended use. Even Amazon Echo is only 80 more and I’m sure most people wouldn’t mind paying $179 for a reliable and functional smart home controller. Echo has been on the market for less than 6 month and it’s already has functioning integration with Hue, WeMo and Wink.
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What’s wrong with 99 bucks? Well, lets see. If it can’t sustain itself, then its a major issue.
Staples Connect, obviously heavily subsidised. Who knows the real costs.
Apple TV? Not even an HA platform. But also subsidised by content purchased in its walled garden.
Amazon Echo. Seriously subsidised by the Amazon ecosystem (or echosystem?)
PEQ? $10/month subscription
Wink? Let’s not even go there.
HomeKit? Wait and see
Nest? Still waiting for anything beyond Dropcam rebranded Nest Cam and limited 3rd party “works with nest”
The issue here is when this sector collapses or consolidates, as growth segments always do. Those with the user bases and a solid revenue stream or maybe even profits will be in a position to survive, acquire and assume a leadership role.
ST only sells a one time revenue option, a $99 hub and maybe some points on selling hardware to go with the hub.
The platform is maintained off the revenue from new hub and device sales or some other revenue model not talked about.
My main point is, that if ST offered a premium platform that would guarantee uptime, scheduling reliability, etc. what would you pay for it?
Would you pay 10 a month? 40 a month?
What would you pay for premium support? Custom code development? 3rd party integration?
Or is the assumption, this should all be free? Or at least included in a $99 hub?
Is there room for 3rd parties to support end users?
Would you pay someone to set up and support your ST solution for you?
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i actually would pay for premium support say no more than 20 per month, I would not mind paying more for special programs to improve the setup and someone looking into how to improve the HA system in house with suggestions to improve use and energy usage.
Only IF SmartThings blessed such arrangements with a VAR program. Dealers / VARs are probably only feasible businesses if they are supported by their suppliers, or if their services are based on entirely open platforms.
who came up with their business model? was it somehow forced down their throats?? if a one-time purchase price of $99 doesn’t sustain their business, they need to rethink it. but wink isn’t charging a monthly fee, and while i stopped using it two weeks into my HA “experiment” because it couldn’t consistently turn on/off my two GE bulbs, ST isn’t doing that much better.
i have zero confidence that ST can provide a reliable service at any cost, and the value of the services they’re providing is getting close to zero as it cannot be counted on. i would need to see major improvements in reliability before thinking of adding on to my environment or considering paying ST a monthly fee
I’d guess the original business model was “Let’s build a multi protocol home automation hub as a proof of concept, get good press, and sell it to a big manufacturer.” Done.
And Samsung’s purchase justification was “Let’s find something in home automation with a good name, good buzz, and not wedded to a single protocol so we can keep our name in all the IOT conversations and eventually use the HA name with SAMI.” Again, done.
Price point, and break even point, for both of those is irrelevant as long as the price is low enough to keep press reviewers happy.
That’s why there’s no way to predict what hub 3.0 might be like, or what the pricing model will be. With Samsung’s ownership, this isn’t a simple profit-based calculation for SmartThings as a standalone business.
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Nice to see someone besides me bring up that point (ummm… OK, I post junk around here far too often, and I’m sure I’m in a half-dozen “business model” threads if you searched).
EDIT: And @JDRoberts beats me to the same point as usual 
The business model was – make the business attractive enough for a buyout. Success … sold to Samsung for $200,000,000.
The business model now? I doubt that hardware sales will ever have sufficient margins to be successful except with massive scaling. The resources of Samsung might permit that. But as we’ve speculated, the typical revenue focus these days? Not hardware, heck, not even software or subscriptions: Rather … data mining and marketing. Just speculative.
Long story short … It’s too bad that we can’t get a product with the features of SmartThings for, say, $500 that can be run off-the-cloud and still have great ongoing support (upgrades, etc.). But the market doesn’t lean in that direction.
Do you think Google bought Nest in order to be in the hardware business? Hint: No.
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my apologies if i “stole” your point 
just a bit frustrated by the apologetic attitude towards the no-fee service… i expect ST to turn on my lights 100% of the time. is that being unreasonable??
If you can’t sustain yourself, you go out of business or you adjust and become competitive.
Staples Connect, obviously heavily subsidised. Who knows the real costs.
Staples connect is manufactured by D-Link and is basically their WiFi router hardware with a couple of extra radios thrown in. It’s price is in line with their router products.
Apple TV? Not even an HA platform.
It’s a consumer networked device with a cloud behind it. I’d argue that development, manufacturing and infrastructure maintenance cost are on the same scale, if not more.
Amazon Echo. Seriously subsidised by the Amazon ecosystem.
That’s an opinion (or a speculation). Amazon may not make huge profits selling Echo, but I doubt they sell it below cost.
Bottom line, a couple of hundred bucks will take you a long way as far as hardware is concerned. There was time when laptops cost $3,000. Now it’s $300. Why the HA hardware should be any different?
Would you pay 10 a month? 40 a month?
I wouldn’t pay a dime. As far as I’m concerned (as a consumer), they chose cloud-based architecture to minimize their operational cost. It’s their decision, not mine. Why would I want to pay for it? All I know is that I bought a device that allows me to turn my goddamned lights on and off and I don’t care what type of technology they chose to do it.
Would you pay someone to set up and support your ST solution for you?
I don’t pay anyone to setup and support my PC, which is by far a more complex device than a hub.
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