For those that are intrested the other Box that is wired on this particular 3 way circuit here it is maybe it makes sense to you! The switch on the right is the 3 way switch the switch on the left Is for the front porch lights.
The bundle of white wires are (almost certainly) your neutrals.
The bare wires, of course, are ground. There should be a ground on the green screw!
One of the terminals on the three-way switch should be black or at least a different color than the other two (ignoring ground). Black terminal is “common”, flipping the switch connects common to one or the other terminals.
If this switch has line coming to it, black terminal will be the line/hot. You can verify that with a non-contact tester. That terminal will be the only one to have 120V regardless of how the switches are flipped. If it doesn’t have 120V in all states, then line is coming to the other switch. Same deal, black terminal on one of the two switches will have 120V always, that’s your line.
Given that there are no red wires, it looks like whoever wired these switches used 12-2 or 14-2 cables instead of 12-3 or 14-3. So you’ve got only black and white wires being used for everything.
Figuring out which romex cable is load is trickier. Start with the two diagrams in the Zooz paperwork. Those are supposed to be most common. Google will find you other possibilities. I don’t know a foolproof way to figure which pair goes to the load, the pros probably do.
Okay folks, let’s break this down. The wire running INTO, BETWEEN, and OUT of BOTH boxes is 14/2 romex with ground.
The first box with the power coming from the breaker panel is set up super wierd.
From the second perspective, the wire on the lower, black screw is the one that gets 120V from the breaker. The white wire that is capped with a wire nut alone I believe is the neutral, and then the grounds for both cables are wire nutted together. like all the other switches in the house that are still dumb switches, no ground is attached…
The white wire attached to the switch is the traveller conductor.
The second box is just confusing as all get out. It’s the switch on the right. The cable comes in, the black load line from the first switch comes into the line on this switch. The white wire connects to the traveller, and the ground is tied into the ground bundle at the bottom center of the photo.
The second romex, the load, black wire goes to the load lug on the switch, the white neutral wire goes to the neutral bundle shared with the other switch / circuit in this box, and the ground is in the ground bundle.
Thus, like I said, there is no neutral that goes between these switches. There is however Neutral available at the first switch, and neutral available and used on the load device that is not on either switch…
The oddest thing is that wiring between the two switches uses multiple 14-2 cables instead of a single 14-3. But there’s nothing really wrong with that.
The “extra” white wire in the first box might be tied to the neutrals in box 2 but I don’t think it actually serves any purpose.
Not having ground connected to the green lug on the switches is very surprising to me. That’s most definitely not how my one-year-old house is wired.
It’s beyond my depth, so best left to the pros at @TheSmartestHouse support
Please understand I am NOT trying to be snarky here, but I am having trouble understanding where the misunderstanding of my situation is coming from…
After posting my painfully long explanation of my trace down, AND the photos, where could you possibly get that idea from?
I am going to state this as clearly and unmistakeably as physically possible.
There is ONLY ONE 14/2 romex between the two switches.
Again, there is only ONE 14/2 Romex coming IN to the box with power, and another 14/2 romex going OUT to the other switch box.
Since there is no neutral carry over between the two, the neutral on the incoming line is simply capped off with a wiring nut. This is coming from the “Bedroom 4” breaker.
The neutral that the load romex that goes to the fixture is tied into a completely different circuit that comes off of the kitchen breaker.
I am painfully aware that this isn’t right. It’s what is in the house, and part of the pain of trying to do a Smart Home conversion as much of the wiring is funny… But it has been in place and working well for 35 years so far…
Yeah, that’s kind of the difference between a 1 year old, and a 35 year old house… I’ve seen a LOT of older, I.E. 1950s homes without so much as a neutral at all in the box…
Mind you, the original switches in the house didn’t even have provisions for grounding at all, no ground lugs. The Decoras have them, but there were no jumpers for ground. I am adding all that…
Assuming the Zen 27 works like a standard 3 way switch, BUT requires the neutral to power the switch intelligence full time, which most do, I should in theory be able to…
Power off the breakers (obviously) and replace the remote switch with one that does not have the LED backlight per Zooz. Fixing the line and load reversal on that switch, and adding the ground jumper. Power on and test.
Power off the breakers for the circuits involved again, and swap the powered switch for the Zen 27, line for line, load for load, traveller for traveller. Connect the capped off neutral to neutral, and connect a ground jumper to the switch and the ground bundle.
Assemble, power, and test.
There should be no interference problems between it, and the hub, it sits about 6" below the hub mounting location…
I do NOT like this wiring situation, however, with the wiring / romex most likely being stapled to the studs, I am not about to rip out drywall just to replace that one run of 14/2 with 14/3. It’s just dumb. If ANYTHING, I could in theory run a single conductor as a neutral between boxes, but I am certain that wouldn’t fly with code… Then again, pretty sure the current arrangement isn’t code either…
Needless to say, my house was wired in a REALLY poor manner…
If I were rebuilding like the Harvey people were, I would happily rip out the drywall and redo the wires right, but I’m not…
I am pretty sure this was done simply to avoid running 14/3 for the circuit by the home builder back in 1984…
Ok. I misspoke. There are two 14-2 romex going into the first box, not between the two boxes. Three-way wiring is still confusing to me, there are too many variations.
I’m bowing out of this discussion. The Zooz folks will get you going, if it’s possible. Enjoy.
Again, please understand I am trying to determine what I might have said to cause the confusion. I am not getting a ton of traction on this for sure…
Knowing what I know now. I am wishing Hurricane Ike would have pushed my house over.
Don’t assume it’s your fault. I skim thru posts, look at the pictures, and have pretty limited experience with wiring. Especially old wiring.
My smart home experience, and thus switch replacement experience, is limited to our brand new custom home in the Texas Hill Country.
I think you’ve hit the limit of what you’ll get here. While we’re, to a greater or lesser degree, enthusiasts here, the advice is going to be limited. I, for one, don’t want to go beyond my expertise and give advice that could result in damage.
If the Zooz folks aren’t getting you thru this puzzle, consider getting an electrician.
Or, wait a bit. Hurricane season is almost here. You could be in a FEMA trailer before fall!
Yeah, I just heard back from Zooz, recommending the Zen 22 for this circuit, and capping off the current feed side, and tapping off the other switches circuit in the double box. Probably not a bad plan… That would have made a LOT more sense to begin with.
I can do THAT one easy…
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Problem solved. The Zen 22 is in and works great!
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Went to do the install of the second 3 way switch setup using a Zen 22 last night. Couldn’t figure out the wiring and left it be for now. Seriously considering bringing an electrician in for this one.
An old thread here but I’m fairly certain I have the same setup and zooz stated it clearly above but the conversation kind of ignored him. I am visual so this is what it looks like.
I will have to run a new wire to make it work with zooz switch.
The green arrows are pointing to a wire that does not exist.
I’m not an electrician but I’m having trouble understanding your diagram.
I think there are only three ways to wire a 3-way switch:
- Line-switch-switch-load
- Line-load-switch-switch
- Line-switch-load-switch
Illustrations here: 3-way Switch Wiring - Electrical 101
Line switch switch load is what it shows they just capped the neutral at second switch
They just used all 14/2.
I fixed it by running a new circuit to the second switch now it is code and works with the zen23
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