Rules API, Sharptools, NodeRed or something else?

SmartApps & Automations
1

Howdy! :cowboy_hat_face:

I’ve been using ST for something like 4 years now, but not really actively last 2 years, due to being busy with planning and building our new home!

I was perfectly happy with WebCore in the past, but we all know how that went … I started using SharpTools free and I was generally happy, with some limitations.

I brought some of the devices, along with ST hub from our old house and installed some new, so it’s about time to get back in the game.

What’s the current state of rule engines for advanced automations in 2025? I hope I can get some advice here regarding the choice.

What I’m mostly aiming for is relatively simple AND/OR logic, with both ON and OFF delay timers, preferably with possibility for both trigger delay and conditional (What I mean is for example ON delay timer that activates the action after set time even if the pre-conditions are not fulfilled anymore and the one with the pre-condions that has to be met during the whole set time in order to action to be executed), notifications in form of SMS/pushbullet …

From what I can see, Rules API is yet another failed attempt from Samsung, they haven’t been any updates since basically the beginning, documentation is just awful, and learning it takes time and energy. Might be worth though if I could make some advanced automations, and it should be local executions

SharpTools free is yet another option. I’m already used to it and it was good enough for something like 80% of automations I wanted to have. Have there been any developments in the last 2 years? As I understand, with SharpTools all the executions would be cloud based, am I right?

ST Routines is very alright for something simple … but if I have to create 10+ routines just to control my outdoor lightning, with varying dimming and everything, it’s quite exhausting and clumpy. Due to simplicity and fast local execution I will probably use it for some simple automations like switches …

Samsung Automation Studio, is this even a thing anymore?

NodeRed: I’ve seen this possibility and sounds interessting indeed. Is it a steep learning curve? Worth a while?

Something with the use of Tasker?

Any other alternatives?

I appreciate your inputs! :slight_smile:

2

Yes.

My approach is to use Routines for the simple ones and SharpTools for the more complicated.

Regarding the 20% of the automations you believe can’t be accomplished in SharpTools, I’d go ask in the SharpTools community. You’ll probably find that almost all, is not all, can be done in SharpTools. It has quite a few more capabilities than it did 2 years ago.

5 Likes
3

The Rules API can do much more complicated automation than Routines but is so arcane and cumbersome to use. Few seem to have mastered it other than @TapioX so you might want to DM what you are thinking for automation and see what he comes up with.

1 Like
4

The future of Automation Studio is an unknown at this point. When I recently asked their developer team what the prevision was for with the new 24hr PAT they didn’t know, but indicated there could be problems. If that’s all they know it doesn’t sound good. Their Node-red palette version (cloud API) is what I use and I don’t know if we’ll have problems there in the end.

I use 60% routines, 25% rules and the rest on Node-red.
Yes, it is a learning curve, you need a local server of course and to get the best out of it on a local level, in my view, you need to use MQTT. There is an excellent driver by Todd Austin that does that.
The advantage is that I can do just about anything with that so although routines will remain my base I can cover all possibilities.

1 Like
5

If you like the ease and advanced features of WebCoRE, as you know there’s nothing you can’t do with it, you can still use it with ST, all you need is to buy an old Hubitat hub from Ebay for 50 bucks,and mirror your devices.

1 Like
7

Thanks! This is exactly how I planned to do! :slight_smile:

I’ll have a check at Sharptools, I remember them having quite a helpfull community members and responsive staff. My experience with them was really positive.

Also, I’m aware they have a Dashboard solution as well, which I haven’t tried yet, but intend to do so :slight_smile:

1 Like
8

It seams like yet another overcomplicated user-unfriendly, half-baked, un-supported piece of Samsung sh… TBH

Why couldn’t they provide a normal rule engine, something like WebCore or SharpTools … beats me …

Also, I heard that you can’t even implement basic things like timers in Rules API, but don’t know if that’s true. Anyway, documentation and Samsung support on this is basically non-existent

9

Yes, SAS seems to be a bit of the mystery, not sure they have a slightest idea on what to do with it.

This Node-red pallette (cloud API) you’re mentioning, what do you mean by that? Is this the Node-red integration by Todd Austin or something else?

Although I need to learn some new stuff, like this MQTT things in the first place, this Node-red sounds like a way to go for advance local automations and NOT Rules API :slight_smile:

May I ask what are you using Rules API (25%) for? Something that can’t be done in Node-red nor Sharptools?

10

The Samsung Automation Studio is a Node-red clone with Samsung UI that can be used to make Smart Apps (don’t know much about that) but these developers also have an identical node for using in Node-red with the standard UI.

The driver I mentioned by @TAustin is an Edge driver for integrating MQTT in Smartthings (using rules!) which can be intergrated also into Node-red.

I try to keep things as simple as possible and what can be done on the Smartthings app (which I like very much and routines are what I use it for) stays there. If it needs ‘tuning’ with every, changes , nested conditions, or multiple actions on the same device, then I use rules, very often starting by copying and pasting the code from a routine.
More complex projects I’ll start with Node-red.

1 Like
11

I have used Rules API rules to implement all the simple functions. The idea was to keep the number of ST App routines small, with all the standard “fixed” functions implemented by the Rules API. (the standard “fixed” functions = lamps and led strips controlling using buttons etc) When notifications or routine editing are needed (e.g. times), I have used ST App routines.

2 Likes
12

Thanks!

I will definitely try Node-Red then.

And Node-Red generally has a much greater use case than Rules API. I could even integrate it into Siemens TIA Portal (I’m automation/commissioning engineer) … or maybe for HA one day, who knows.

I didn’t know you can actually copy a code from routine and the recycle it and add some more fancy stuff in Rules API. That might be a bit of a game changer actually! I suppose this is possible from the ST Advanced, I can have a look

14

Although they are less of an existential threat to my installation than they once were (now the handling of deleted devices is less ridiculous), I still only use Routines where I can’t do the job with the Rules API (so basically for announcements and notifications) or for quick tests. The one exception is that I use the preset routines for the buttons on SmartTags, but that is largely because I don’t use them for anything serious as they can be pressed too easily. Otherwise I don’t use presets, templates or recipes (SmartThings).

I’ve only ever used SASM for cross-location automations but that was only worthwhile using PATs and SSE. Now that isn’t viable I might as well do the job myself.

1 Like
15

Hey there! :wave: Josh, founder of SharpTools here. Feel free to tag me if you have any questions about SharpTools.

Yes, lots of updates to rules, dashboards, and our underlying platform over that time. Here’s a few you might be interested in and you can also check the Announcements category in the SharpTools community:

What were the remaining 20%?

That’s sounds reasonable with SharpTools. You can mix and match Triggers, Delays, and IF Conditions as you see fit. You can edit IF Conditions to switch between AND/OR… and you can nest IF Conditions to get a combination of AND and OR conditions if needed.

Glad to hear you had a good experience!

1 Like
16

Thanks Josh!

I will definitevely give it a try once I’m back from the trip.

Can’t remember exactly those 20% … but remember it was something with the switch for my heater and some thermostat controls … but I don’t have any of those in my new house, so I’ll start building some new Rules from scratch so we see how that goes :slight_smile:

Btw. is there any chance Sharptools could be ran locally on ST? Seems like a hot topic these days :slight_smile:

17

Hi @Kunjila welcome back to SmartThings community.

About 18 months ago, I got to a point with the SmartThings platform where I either switched to Home Assistant, or found a way to develop more advanced automations.

The solution I found was to use SmartThings Routines for simple automations and Node-RED for Advanced Automation (And much, much more see below).

I wrote this article which explains my approach to using Node-RED.
Unleash SmartThings with Node-RED

Eighteen Months on, I have no regrets. I can now rapidly implement ANY advanced automation, no matter how complex. No Limits!

In addition to advanced automations, I now use Node-RED to develop elegant dashboards and full functional mobile apps using the new set of Dashboard 2.0 nodes. These nodes enable you to build GUI using VueJS and Vuetify components.

All my Advanced Integrations, Dashboards and Mobile Apps have access to my SmartThings devices via the set of Samsung Node-RED Nodes.

After 18 months, I now view the Node-RED Platform as the centre of my Smart home system. It is the core platform which I can use to rapidly develop Automations, Dashboards and Apps which access: any API on the internet (e.g. ChatGPT, Weather APIs), utilise RSS feeds, implement a Telegram front end, Oh! and of course access SmartThings to obtain the state of my devices and initiate commands to control my devices.

3 Likes
18

Thanks a lot Tim!

Your words build confidence that I also made a right decission not switching to HA :slight_smile:

I actually read your topic/article on Node-RED, and that’s the main reason I’m even aware of this possibility. But I will give it a second (proper) read and try to go that path as well.

If I understand correctly, automations are also locally executed? Awesome! … although I have a bunch of devices with C2C integration possibility only, meaning cloud exec … and any automation with at least one cloud based component will be cloud exec.

I’m not a programmer in a classical sense, but as automation engineer I have built a lot of PLC and HMI/SCADA software so I might give it a go, trying to make some dashboards :slight_smile:

In parallel, I’ll also be using Sharptools since I believe the guys there are doing amazing jobs as well! … but Rules API, that would be a hard no!

If only I find a way somehow to access Eufy devices (cameras, presence sensors, door sensors …) that my wife bought a whole bunch of, without consulting with me :smiley:

1 Like
19

Switching to Home Assistant would have mean divorce as I would not have seen my wife again :rofl:

As an Automation Engineer you should be right at home with Node-RED . This is one of Node-RED’s key use cases.

BTW, the rule API is a non starter.

Get yourself a Raspberry Pi (Pi Zero 2 W, Pi 4 or 5 depending on your budget).
Install Node_RED on it and start playing. There are some great starter tutorials on Youtube.

Once you are convinced its for you, then integrate it with SmartThings as per my article.

Have fun!

20

@Kunjila, have you been with planning and building a new home? I did the same in 2019.

Hope you installed plenty of Cat6 cables.
I am still finding new uses for my cables, 5 years later.

Bets of luck Tim