Philips Hue bulb + ZLL power supply insert but no neutral

[Aido]

Hi,

Apologies if this was asked before.

I am in the UK and was looking to use a Busch-Jaeger ZLL power supply insert (6710 U-500) to control some Philips Hue light bulbs.

On removing the existing rocker light switch I see that I do not have a neutral. Section 5.6 of the Busch-Jaeger ZigBee Light Link System Manual states “Neutral conductor required”. There is a suggested wiring diagram at the top of the 6710 U-500 manual.

So I wonder if I can put the Hue bulb inline with the power supply i.e. use the exiting wiring to run the neutral of the power supply to the light fitting/Hue bulb, pretty much the same as existing rocker switch?

I know that Busch-Jaeger also have battery powered wall-mounted ZLL transmitters but my preference would be to use the power supply if I can easily do so without needing any re-wiring.

[Ryan780]

If you are using Hue Bulbs, you don’t need anything to control them other than the hue hub or SmartThings. The switch must always stay on. It doesn’t matter if there is a neutral there or not, you have to leave the switch on for the hue bulbs to work.

[Aido]

Hi @Ryan780

True.
But I wanted to maintain the ability to control the lights with a mains powered wall switch same as I currently do with our not-so-smart bulbs.

[Ryan780]

Ah…okay. First, if you’re going to do that, you might want to look at the ZigBee Light Link Relay insert instead of using Hue Bulbs. That way you only have one element to change and you wouldn’t need to buy additional equipment. But I’ve never used any of their products…but they do all require a neutral. So, you’d have to run a neutral back to the switch somehow.

If you just want local control, you can look at the “Buttons and switches” FAQ up here on the forum and then you’d just need to remove the switch altogether.

[WB70]

True.

But I wanted to maintain the ability to control the lights with a mains powered wall switch same as I currently do with our not-so-smart bulbs.

By switching the power on and off with a switch, you run the risk of decreasing the life of the smart bulb. The idea behind a smart bulb is that power is always on with the ability to switch the bulb off and on without cutting power. Go with a dumb bulb if you need the ability to power on / off with a switch. Not recommended with smart bulbs.

Additionally, if power is out via mains powered switch you cannot turn the bulb on via app or automation.

If you switch a Hue bulb off and on at the switch, it will return to the default color, not the previous setting.

As mentioned above, you could use non mains powered type switches such as the Hue Dimmer Switch or Tap which in essence is a Smart button to control the on/off and different scenes for your bulbs without affecting the actual power/current. Just some thoughts for ya.

[Aido]

Thanks for the responses.

A couple of things:

By switching the power on and off with a switch, you run the risk of decreasing the life of the smart bulb.

The power will not be turning on and off at the switch. The Busch-Jaeger 6710 U-500 is a power supply in the switch socket for powering a variety of Busch-Jaeger ZLL control elements also at the switch socket. This will give the ability to select different scenes from the switch socket.

you might want to look at the ZigBee Light Link Relay insert instead of using Hue Bulbs

Using a relay means I have just on/off control and cannot use some of a Hue bulb’s features like scenes etc.

[Edward_Niedziejko]

To confirm:

You intend to use the control switch system as radio switches for hue, not as a physical switch, correct?

If so, then this should work fine for you. The hue bulb locations don’t need rewiring.

As for the existing switch location, what wires do you have? Just two same-coloured wires? Can you post an image?

[Aido]

Hi @Edward_Niedziejko,

Yes, There will be no physical switching.

Currently the wall switch has a live input from the electricity distribution panel and a switched live output going to standard light bulb in the ceiling. Both are brown wires to signify ‘live’. There are no other wires at switch, just 2 brown.
The light bulb in the ceiling has the switched live brown wire coming from the switch and a return wire (blue to signify ‘neutral’) back to electricity distribution panel. This is standard wiring in UK and Ireland.

I wish to replace the current physical switch with a Busch-Jaeger ZLL radio control element (for on/off and scene selection) and a Busch-Jaeger 6710 U-500 power supply to power the control element. I also plan replace the light bulb with a Hue bulb but am unsure if it is a possible to have the power supply inline with the Hue light bulb.

The alternative would be to connect the two wires at wall switch together and just use a battery powered ZLL control element on wall but I would like to use a power supply rather than batteries if I can.

[Edward_Niedziejko]

Any chance you could pull an extra wire from the switch to the light? Are there conduits in your walls?

[Aido]

Hi again @Edward_Niedziejko,

No such luck. Rewiring or running another wire is not really an option. Or rather is not really an option without considerable expense or effort.

I take it from your response that you think the power supply for the control element cannot be inline with the Hue light bulb?

[Aido]

Guess I found my answer:

Control mains sockets or dumb bulbs within Hue • r/Hue

As @Edward_Niedziejko has already suggested, it looks like I would need another wire for it to work as planned.