Dumb light switches + control panel?

Links to stuff:

example of GE smart switch:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Z-Wave-Plus-In-Wall-Smart-Switch-14291/300808928?cm_mmc=Shopping|G|Base|D27E|27-2_WIRING_DEVICES|NA|PLA|71700000034239053|58700003946878363|92700031954447757&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIj87HyNic2wIVzUsNCh3i4wUGEAQYAiABEgJtxPD_BwE&dclid=COiys8vYnNsCFUa-TwodSMgGhg

I think you know this stuff form other posts of yours I’ve read, but your line of discussion really makes it seem like you’ve gotten side tracked from the obvious solutions.

1 Like

I don’t disagree with you on this.
I am saying the price point rules out huge market segments, the ones needed to make it successful.

A bit of history. Timelines not perfectly exact, but conceptually accurate.

20 years ago, a 42” flatpanel tv was plasma and cost $6K or more. The average home couldn’t touch it.

15 years ago, less expensive rear-projection units came along. Lower picture quality, but 1/3 the price.
They started showing up in upper-middle class homes.

A decade ago, breakthroughs began occurring as economies of scale became available. (and Govt mandated the change to Digital broadcast.)

Today? Today, you can get a 55” 4K LCD screen for $500 or less. And it does a lot more.
Smaller units can be had for less than $200.

So today, virtually every household that has TV has an HDTV.

Back to Brilliant: there’s no way the mass market lays out $249 for a light switch. Regardless of laziness.

However, the mass market is laying out for Echo Dot and Google ‘dot’ at $40.

Soooo… I’m saying the price point for mass market penetration for something like Brilliant has to be around $60 or less.

That was in reference to having both dedicated wall switches and touch-screens, where I was thinking a smart phone or tablet next to the switches. So, guests might try to use the touchscreen just to operate the lights on the switch. But, others have convinced me to abandon the idea of using screens for anything but a couple in key places for occasional advanced control.

Most of my dumb switches will need to be changed out for remotes to control smart devices, since I’m planning on adding color bulbs/LEDs. Yet, where replacing an existing switch, it might as well be powered, and preferably allow some way to cut power to the circuit (as a backup if things go screwy or for maintenance).

I have mild unease in going with the aforementioned remotes rather than switches, since it obviously requires having smart bulbs. Not only would I need to leave the smart bulbs, but it could be adding a burden on a buyer by trapping them into that paradigm. But, my first focus is designing what works for me, and worry selling when/if I sell. And, if I can ever transition to LEDs like I’m dreaming of, then that’ll be a moot point.

It’s nice to have choices. Alexa can actually hear you ask for stuff, but (aside from voice control) can’t answer the most remedial questions. Google Home can answer most any reasonable question, but can’t hear you. :unamused:

Honestly, “most” market segments is having a couple few bulbs in the living area or maybe a strip of LEDs over the sink. Most segments would only need one, and three quarters of why they’d buy it would be as a status symbol and/or they saw some movie where a guy gets laid because they have automated blinds.

Myself… I’ve been thinking of getting the NEEO for half again as much, and I don’t even need to get laid.

I have no clue about this product; haven’t even watched the promo video. Just saying.

This is such a fascinating thread. I spent hundreds of hours building HousePanel and now I don’t even use it much myself. Alexa plus cheap Zwave switches are hard to beat. But I do love the look of it on my wall. I loved learning that I can buy a bunch of cheap android phones and now mount one in every room. My wife is going to love me for this (NOT). By the way, she hates it when I speak Alexa so I have started using my smart watch with Google Assistant to talk to my smart switches. I can skip the Alexa prompt and it is always on my body.

2 Likes

I may be biased, but I see touch panels (alongside tactile switches) becoming very popular in smart homes; but, indeed, we are at the infancy of this industry. The product has to be powerful, convenient, simple to install, reliable, … and sufficiently affordable to place in “every” room.

I don’t think a homeowner needs to be “quite wealthy”; but, $250/room is a hurdle.

There are others trying, though:

1 Like

I think the key variable is you seem to really want those colored smart bulbs. Which needs an app/remote to work.

I’m really anti-smart-bulb :slight_smile:

I’m still using your SmartTiles on two cheap android tablets! Been using that since I got into ST, and one old phone on its own since before that with OK google and tasker. So I share your bias.

I just think they can’t be too expensive.

1 Like

Hi @Roguetech,

In that case, let me give you my combinations for automating my house.
What I have rigged out:

  1. I have a 3-way setup for 2nd to 3rd floor staircase which I am not comfortable with modding to a smart switch myself. So this is what I did. I ordered 2 of these 2x2Button (Z-Wave) controllers which fit over the existing light switch cover with some 3M Velcro tape and installed a Cree Connected LED light bulb in the light fixture so that I can have a dimmer light system.

  2. For places the swap is easy for me I have installed these Zooz Switches which have AirGap built in and have both (Toggle and Deco Switch and a Dimmer versions) and install dumb LED bulbs from Amazon or Costco.
    imageimageimage

In the end it all comes down to Choice.

Also, if you are still interested, ActionTiles is a great way to have dashboard for your house.
I have 2 setup for major locations so that I can control/monitor my lights/premature/motion in and out of my house.

4 Likes

Number 1 is certainly an option, but… I don’t like the styling. (See my next post for why.)

Number 2… Is tantalizing, since they use ubiquitous styles that could be matched with other brands. But, as you say, they control the power rather than device. Using smart bulbs isn’t just something I’m being hard-headed about (aside from being a First World problem). I want my color.

But… if I could find wired switches to control smart devices with an “air gap”, using either a toggle or paddle switch… Well… I think I’d still be lacking one more requirement… dimming.

[Like the initial post, this is a cross-post. My personal preference is the other forum thread to be the “primary” one, but I will see all responses in both.]

Since everyone has helped me evolve and clarify my needs and just exactly what I’m actually trying to accomplish and why, I’m going to do a mini reboot and lay those needs out again, just to make sure I’m not missing something… And hopefully get more focused answers. The needs are really the same as before, even though there’s some big “on paper” differences than my initial post.

As a TL;DNR, I want to implement smart device user controls so that they appear and operate as if the house had been designed with color smart lighting in mind to begin with. :grinning: As such, I want to maintain both the simplicity and ease of dumb switches, as well as maintain their functionality. In other words, I’ll probably add touch-screens/control panels later, but they will be relegated to a couple of high activity/seating areas and not used as the primary day-to-day way to do the simple stuff (essentially, they’ll be admin panels for family/guests :wink:)

As I see it, I can go two routes. The first could be summarized as “replace all dumb switches with smart switches than can control smart devices and/OR the power”, as follows (all these numbered “1.n”, where my second way of accomplishing things below will be “2.n”):

1.1a) Replace existing dumb switches with powered switches for smart devices (eg to control Hue bulbs - not controlling power).

1.1b) I want to maintain the existing functionality of cutting power to the circuit, for maintenance/emergencies (eg an “air gap”).

1.2) I want to add new switches exist to the house where they don’t currently for controlling smart devices (eg Hue lights).

1.3) I want them to match (including the Bonus item below).

1.4) Some of these switches will need be able to do dimming, so there should be an option for 1.1a, 1.1b AND 1.2 as dimmers (though dimmers may be acceptable everywhere… but, I like the Lutron design options with both dimmer and two-button).

Bonus; I also have a couple dumb devices that I would like to control, and would want the switch to control the power for those. Since there’s only a couple (I believe literally two), this is no longer a priority for me.

I’m getting the feeling that even with mix-matching, getting these requirements would be tricky at best, and only with matching by overall style, as per JDRoberts suggestion of paddle-style switches. If someone presented another option that qualifies, then I must humbly apologize, for I have missed it (but I’m going back through them). Seems the tricky part is wired controllers to signal smart devices.

 

The second route (which really isn’t about “smart devices”) is to maintain separate dumb switches, but not display them prominently on my walls (if I’m picky about wall art… why should I display switches on my walls?!):

[All of these can be summarized as “put smart device switches (eg for Hue bulbs) in front of recessed dumb switches”.]

2,1) Replace the existing switch boxes in the wall with a “recessed” model (maybe like this??),

2.2) Recess the existing switches (possibly with miniaturized models, if that’s a thing),

2.3) Get battery switches for controlling smart devices (eg Hue bulbs) for everywhere (except the two dumb-devices mentioned in “Bonus” above),

2.4) Get (or, hypothetically, make) a wall holder for the battery switches that allow easy removal AND have a cut-out back (like the Hue dimmer or Pico mount, but with a hole in the backside - see below for why),

2.5) Place the battery switches over top the recessed dumb switches, where the hole in the mount allows access to the recessed switches behind.

If I want to get at the switch, I pull off the remote, easy. The only issue I can think of (aside from effort and cost) is if I someone walks off with the remote, it might look ugly/weird. But, they will mostly live on the wall, and I’ll pretend like I have the skill to not to do a hack job on the electrical box and in-line switches.

Just FYI, with route #2, I’m leaning towards Lutron (special thanks to SmartHomePrimer). If I’m not mistaken (for a change) Caseta/Pico allows all of the first route except 1.1a (and half of 1.1b), including Bonus, so it might be nice in case I come across any other places where I need control the power. Or for that matter, scale back my plans on color lighting and just use dumb bulbs.

Again… In general, what I want to accomplish is to design my smart lighting - using color smart bulbs - to be look and work as if the house had been made for them. No superfluous switches, or bulbous mounts over a switch, or mismatched controls, or child-proof locks. If I can’t do it from the “smart switch” route, I’ll just build the smart remotes over the switches… At least, until someone tells me why I that would be a dumbass thing to try (annnnd… queue JD :wink:).

Frankly you are REALLY over complicating everything!!!

2 Likes

How so? For wanting my house to have clean and consistent lighting controls?

Is there some other and easier/cheaper way to accomplish that?

edit: With color. I acknowledge that’s a major fly in the ointment. If I was fine with white lights… Yea, far easier and cheaper options abound. But I want color. /edit

No. You can have clean consistent controls. It can be simplified just a bit.

Requirements:
Colored Bulbs – gotcha
Consistent styling of switches – gotcha

Anymore requirements? Once you define the requirements then a solution can be designed. Until then there’s dozens of possible options.

1 Like

Yes, one more. Maintaining the existing functionality of dumb switches, with “air gap” power control. Aside from @JDRoberts saying it’d probably meet code [to remove dumb switches in favor of battery operated remotes], I’m not going to flip a breaker when the smart lights start doing weird crap in the middle of the night or whatever. (Or, personally unsafe or not, if I need to do simple maintenance on a light fixture or fan.)

edit: That’s the other fly (see edit above). From what I’ve seen, I can accomplish power + smart device control. I can accomplish an air gap. I think maybe I can accomplish both, but only with paddle-style switches, but still not sure on specifics.

For starters. Nobody flips a breaker when changing a light bulb unless they are really that afraid. But that’s not the point.

There’s a few things that have to be defined. So we have the basic requirements.

Recap: Color Bulbs, Consistent Control design, Air Gap (really is that important? Most normal switches don’t have this…but anyways)

First steps:
Do you plan on using any sensors or other devices to automate your lighting (motion sensors, door sensors, Lux sensors). If so it’s a good time to choose a protocol technology (z-wave, zigbee, insteon) for this. This will help or lead to a choice in control options (I’m saying “control” because lots of terminology is flying around about switches and remotes and wired switches and smart switches. There’s a big difference here but lets simplify and just say “control” option and get to the details later).

1 Like

I’ll defer to @Navat604 And the other electrical experts in the community, But as far as I know, most dumb light switches don’t have air gaps and most electricians wouldn’t trust them if they did. (Insteon famously had a model line of smart switches that had an air gap that didn’t work.)

Instead, people just turn off the branch at the breaker, which you can also do with any of the mains powered smart devices if you need to do electrical work or if you suspect the device itself is malfunctioning. The “existing functionality” of dumb switches is maintained in exactly the same way – – by throwing the circuit breaker.

An air gap switch is at best a convenience, and at worse another potential point of failure. I personally wouldn’t make that a hardline requirement when selecting devices, but that’s just me.

1 Like

Valid points. I have never had a switch with an “Air gap” until I installed my GE Z-Wave switches.

As stated the air gap only cuts the power to the load connected to the switch not to the entire circuit or other legs coming off that circuit. So it really is pointless in my opinion. I can change a light bulb without sticking my finger in the socket :smile:

3 Likes

(Answers @JDRoberts point as well.) Yes. If I built a house that had smart lighting, I’d still put in switches for power control on the individual circuits. I probably wouldn’t put them in the same place, or group them the same way (partially to save on wire, and partially for aesthetics) but I’d have them. Just like water valves at each sink (but not for an entire bathroom), they’re more convenient and safer than only having a handful of master switches.

edit: And again, if something goes wrong at 2 am and the lights go hay-wire, the WAF is already shot… If there’s no way to easily cut power without turning off the entire bedroom… There’d be no recovering from that! /edit

Yes. edit: Might be obvious, but any color options would be controlled from automation, probably supplemented by a couple SmartTile setups later, not to be wall mounted. /edit

Fair enough, but I don’t know enough to make that judgement, and at this point I don’t have solutions for any one standard, let alone more than one.

You misunderstand what a switch is/does and what a circuit is. The switch directs power from a leg coming from a circuit to a “load”. That load would be a light or other electric device. The switch is a controller that allows for on/off. There’s no on/off of your power outlets and there’s no air gap either. There’s probably no air gap on your existing light switches. Go look at them. This misuse or misunderstanding of terminology is causing lots of confusion between everyone.

Going forward:
We are not talking about “Circuits”. That’s more complex than you want to get into.
We are talking about “switches” which are “Control Points” for basic on/off functionality
We are talking about colored light bulbs here on to be referred to as “Smart Bulbs”

You said you are interested in sensors. So this leads to a protocol selection which will lead/drive a lot of other choices. One of the drivers for this will be the choice of a “Control System”. Now the “Control System” is often referred to as a “hub” or a “bridge” depending on it’s capabilities. You are on the SmartThings forum and Hubitat so there’s interest. Do you own either? If so that will help direct the conversation and better direct you for getting proper answers whether it would be on this community or the Hubitat community.

There is a reason why I’m starting from (almost) the beginning on this. I think there’s a lot of information that was glossed over or not fully understood which has ramifications with future options and choice so please be patient there is a reason for this.

4 Likes