SmartThings Community

Zigbee Meshing Question

#1

I’m curious if two zigbee bridges (say for example hue and SmartThings) were “on the same network” (think: how zll remotes like ‘Lutron connected bulb remote’ steal bulbs if not paired with hub), would the two hubs be able to use each other’s devices for meshing. I know control of each other’s devices may not work, but would meshing work?

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#2

Unfortunately, no. :disappointed_relieved:

Zigbee Home Automation, which is what SmartThings uses, only allows for one coordinator per network. So all the zigbee devices that talk to the smartthings hub directly are on one network and any zigbee device that talks to the hue bridge ( I assume you meant the bridge, since there is no “hue hub”) directly is on a different zigbee network. Devices on one network cannot repeat for devices on another network.

The smartthings hub and the hue bridge talk to each other over your ethernet LAN, they don’t use zigbee for that.

In this specific case, that actually turns out to be a good thing, since the Hue bulbs, like many other zigbee Light bulbs, have a bad habit of dropping messages they are supposed to be repeating for other types of zigbee devices.

But when it comes to repeaters, you will need to get enough repeating zigbee devices that connect to your smartthings – based network to strengthen the mesh; you can’t count anything that is connected to the hue bridge.

See post 11 in the following thread and then go back up to the start of that topic and read the whole thing for more details.

And I know no one cares about the following except me :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:, so feel free to ignore it, but one more FAQ:

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#3

Ok. I apologize for calling it a hub.

I realize hue and st communicate over lan.

My thoughts spawned from a few things:

The Lutron connected bulb remote steals bulbs if it’s not paired with a hub/bridge. I noticed that you can pair the remote one of 2 ways with hue. The first being the normal st way where you pair the remote to the bridge/hub before linking bulbs. The second is (hue only) where you steal the bridge using the normal remote bulb pairing process on the remote.

Now here is where my question lies. If the remote were paired with st and then touchlinked the hue, then the hue would theoretically be on the same network as st. This is where I was wondering if zigbee Meshing would work.

And I appreciate the last link you provided. Even on that basis with the hue being a zll bridge my idea may still hold true. Just wondering if it would work.

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#4

You can do a lot of weird things with ZLL devices because ZLL is the only zigbee profile which does not require a coordinator at all. that’s why bulbs can be stolen, because they weren’t really owned by the first network to begin with.

HOWEVER–the SmartThings hub does not use ZLL, and doesn’t work with touchlink. At all. It is a ZHA network instead, with a SINGLE coordinator (the smartthings hub) which establishes the network and owns the devices joined to it.

There is no way to steal a ZHA only bulb, or any of your other ZHA devices like a zigbee doorlock or a zigbee sensor. None of those use touchlink. Once they join your SmartThings network they’re owned by your smartthings hub until you individually reset the device. Then they are available to join to a different network. But they can’t belong to two at once. Similarly, the SmartThings hub can never belong to the hue bridge’s network: ZHA devices do not join ZLL networks, mostly for security reasons.

Per the standard, ZLL bulbs will fall back to a ZHA profile ( typically on a different endpoint) When joined to a ZHA coordinator. The problem is, they are still open to touchlink commissioning on their ZLL endpoint, which is why they can get stolen back.

But once the ZLL device has moved back over to the ZLL network, it will no longer carry the ZHA messages. And again, the smartthings hub itself doesn’t use the ZLL profile at all.

So bulbs reporting to the hue bridge no longer respond as ZHA devices to the SmartThings network.

It might be theoretically possible to get the ZLL endpoint in one physical bulb to join the hue bridge and the ZHA endpoint In that same physical bulb to join a smartthings network, although I doubt it because of the way device reset works. But even if you could make that happen, you would not have joined the smartthings hub to the hue bridge network, you would just have one bulb that was joined to two different zigbee networks, using two different zigbee profiles, from two different zigbee endpoints.

It wouldn’t be A is connected to B and B is connected to C so there’s a path from A to C.

It would be A is connected to B1 and C is connected to B2. B1 and B2 might physically be housed in the same device, but there would be no path from A to C and they would remain on two different networks.

It’s just the way the profiles work.

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I am DONE with IRIS products
(Robin) #5

We’ve all been there… JD quickly kicks us into line though :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

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#6

Nobody has to apologize, it’s a highly technical distinction and I do realize nobody cares about it except me and a couple of the other network engineers in the community. Only, you know, it’s not a hub. LOL! :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

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#7

That’s a little funny as my Lutron remote stole my cree bulbs from ST (without any reset) unless I first paired the remote to the hub. Once paired though, both the remote (which I was under the impression is zll only) and st could control the bulb. If I had not paired the remote it would steal the bulb from ST and only work with the remote.

While I have your technical knowledge may I ask for an understanding of how it works that a zll device can do that with a zha controller. Or am I missing something? I hate to take your time up sir.

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#8

Weird, I thought the Cree bulbs were ZHA Only. But they must have a ZLL endpoint as well, my bad.

As for the remote, per the standard ALL ZLL Devices should fall back to a ZHA profile when joined to a ZHA coordinator. So as a stand-alone device, the Lutron remote bulb controller is ZLL. But it should still be able to be joined to A ZHA coordinator like the SmartThings hub, that part is not surprising.

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#9

I just checked, you are right, the Cree bulbs do have a ZLL endpoint. It’s the US version of the Sylvania that don’t. My bad. I’ve corrected my post above. :sunglasses:

Basically if the bulb can work with a hue bridge, it can be stolen by a touch link device because it is using ZLL. But it’s not using ZLL with the smartthings hub – – instead, it is using a separate ZHA profile, probably on a different endpoint.

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#10

I apologize in advance for going slightly off topic here, but over the last couple of months I have seen so many posts referring to people in the community as a “he”, “him”, “sir”, “dude”, “king” as though everyone in the community is of the male persuasion, and unless the name is clearly stated or there is a picture, that is the only time I have seen “she” or “her”. I understand that most people are just using one of these words in a casual / non gender type of way to say thanks or whatever. Maybe I’m making too much out of it, but I think people should be more aware and be as gender neutral in their posts and not make an assumption to someone’s gender unless 100% sure. Wasn’t trying to single you out Moose, it’s just that I have seen it enough out here and wanted to make people aware that this community consists of all genders, races and religions. Not trying to stir up controversy, just be self aware when replying to folks. Back to your topic. :slightly_smiling_face:

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#11

My favorite diversity meme:

IMG_1014

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#12

Alright. I wouldn’t touch this subject with a 10 foot pole if I had to, but I will say one thing… Im trying to be respectful to those more knowledgeable than myself. Hence my addition of “sir”. It was not meant to hold to a specific gender. Now I don’t know of any replacements for sir/ma’am that are gender neutral asides from the likes of “your Highness” which is too much like kissing “donkey”. I have a lot of respect for jdroberts as they answer timely and always provide well laid out and methodical information that helps my understanding. If I offended them by calling them sir I apologize, but until I know of words to replace sir/ma’am in a respectful gender neutral fashion, i will carry on. If there is an issue with that then call Webster, as it’s not my fault things changed without addressing issues such as which words to use. Furthermore the community guidelines should include this as well (unless I missed it, in which case I’m sorry and I will edit my statement). That doesn’t mean I don’t respect all races, creeds, religions, orientations or preferences. I think people are way to sensitive to these things nowadays, especially in situations (case in point here) when harm was neither implied nor meant. It’s either I carry on or I just don’t try to show respect to those that i feel deserve it.

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#13

No offense meant, none taken, i don’t even know how the side topic got into this thread, to be honest. It doesn’t have anything to do with me one way or the other. :sunglasses:

I’m all in favor of not making assumptions about either people or devices, but I didn’t see anything off in this particular thread except for my own error about the Cree lightbulbs, which again, I apologize for. I know that was confusing.

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#14

:grinning: I never said or even thought that you were being disrespectful in any way whatsoever. I am just wanted people aware that everyone is referred to out here using male terminology which we have no idea on who is a man or a woman and this isn’t about being politically correct, but self aware that a person is a person and not a specific gender.

Since JD is who the reply was made to.

How about:

I hate to take up your time Jdroberts or JD

@JDRoberts I hate taking up your time, but your technical knowledge is great.

It’s not that hard to refer to a person without insinuating that they are always a male.

If you had to word something and wanted to use context, you could always say something like Hey, @JDroberts might be able to assist you with that as he/she is always willing to assist and always has some of the greatest advice ever :slightly_smiling_face:

Not a big deal and I know you meant nothing in harm’s way. Just bugs me that it is assumed that everyone out here in the community is a man.

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#15

How about just not trying to compliment me at all?

Because seriously, I’m just trying to talk about networks here, folks. I have no idea how we got on to all this other stuff. I have a career background in network protocols so I’m interested in those details. But I leave titles and all that to the diplomatic protocol secretaries among us. Not my area. :wink:

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#16

Really? Ok let’s leave it there.

Sorry I brought it up folks.

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#17

Your issue with the Hue Hub versus Hue Bridge, well, although it’s not a technical reference, it’s a little something that bugs me.

Didn’t mean to make it a huge thing.

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#18

It’s funny. I don’t make any assumptions on whether someone is a certain way. Blame the English language. It’s the language that masculinized certain terms/means of expression. Had this been most other languages I’d be able to address jdroberts with the respectful tone implied but in a gender neutral fashion (be mindful that English is not my first, second, nor third language). Additionally, I come from the ‘school of thought’ that calling someone you don’t know by their name is not showing the full amount of deserved respect, hence my use of “sir”. Sure it’s an online handle n not a real name, but the same semantics still apply. So I guess ymmv based on your upbringing, social exposure, culture beliefs. But your not going to sit here and tell me how I should speak. Maybe you should be mindful of how cultural differences may change one’s outlook on addressing others. Also… Where do we stop… Some languages refer to objects in a masculine/feminine fashion… So where to draw the line?

I’m coining it here first on smartthings. Masir. The new word to replace sir/mam lol watch someone have an issue that ma comes before sir and vice versa.

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#19

More semantics lol. I know why it’s a not a hub n why it’s a bridge… But does it really matter? We all know what we are talking about lol

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#20

Masir jdroberts,

So lemme see if I got this. The zll stuff stops and the protocol falls back to zha? Out of curiosity, can a zha master act as a zll/zha slave? Also does ST support group addresses in zigbee?

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