New to SmartThings, lots of ideas. Need guidance (switch brand comparison)

@JDRoberts. Thank you for the posts. You are absolutely correct about it being a personal preference. Looks are very important in what I choose to put in my home, or anywhere for that matter. But, looks are not the #1 on the list. My first choice starts with reliability and I narrow it down from there.

No, I did not do enough research on the switches. I’m quickly learning to control my impatience.

I ask you for your opinion for a very simple reason. In the short time that I have been on this forum I have seen that your personal opinion is very, and I mean very, fact based. Your responses are extremely well written and very informative. Your personal opinion in the matter of HA quality has become a governing factor in my research.

I think I’m going to bite the bullet and go with the Leviton switches. I will just have to space out the purchase of them.

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By the way, if you get into looking at Leviton and you see the multiple button switches, the VRCZ line (zone controllers) don’t work with smartthings. But the VRCS2 and VRCS4 can be made to work with SmartThings, but it takes a custom device type and they can be annoyingly difficult to pair. Search the forum for the specific models if you’re interested in those.

If you just looking at the regular dimmers or binary switches, including the ones for three ways, they should work fine.

And you probably already know this, but all brands that use traveler wires need to match their own master with their own auxiliary. The wiring is different.

If you’re doing virtual three ways where the auxiliary acts as the remote, you will get more features if you stay in the same line for master and auxiliary, but it is possible to mix-and-match a little more.

Cooper offers a battery-operated auxiliary which can also be used to create a virtual three-way through the SmartThings hub. Search the forums for aspire RF 9500 as it needs a custom device type. But IIRC the dimmer button on it won’t work except with its own master.

And for all brands you will have to remove any old nonnetworked auxiliaries from the circuit or they will interfere with the network operations. So you do have to replace all the switches that you have in a circuit one way or another, although sometimes people take this opportunity to replace an old nonnetworked auxiliary with a receptacle or remove it altogether if they’re going to use a virtual auxiliary in a different location. Or even replace it with a tablet charging station if you want to put a dashboard there. Lots of options. :sunglasses:

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Ok, so I’m impatient… oh well…

@JDRoberts, I found the GE 3-way switch kit at Lowes tonight for $47.00. That was the final price out the door with 2 faceplates purchased and a military discount. Much better than Amazon and it’s local. I went ahead and grabbed one set to see how much I like them.

I’m writing this really more as a PSA than anything. I learned something tonight.

This is what I did:

I pulled both switches out of the wall and checked out the wiring. I have 2 black wires, 1 red, 1 white, and a ground in both boxes. So, the first thing I did was ignore the instructions that came with the switches and went online to find a diagram. I figured out that the line in was the one that was always hot, even when not connected. There was only one always hot wire between the two boxes. This was my line in. Also note that the line in comes into the box in a two wire romex. The load wire leaves the box in a 3 wire romex along with the red wire. So, I connected the Main switch. I got all of the wires in the right place but nothing happened. NO little blue light and no bright light bulbs. So, I went and flipped the switch on the other wall (not the aux switch but the original dumb switch). What I then had was some very dim lights and only half power on the traveler wire. So, I flipped off the breaker again.

I then connected the aux switch. I did connect the two black wires in that box cause it just seemed like it should have been done that way.

Now, I had nice bright lights and the main switch worked great. It connected right up to ST and Alexa controls it just fine. Enter, stage right, the problem… the aux switch does NOT work. It doesn’t do crap. Nothing, zilch… it just sits there looking like a stupid broken aux switch.

So, back to the internet I go… and what do I find??? A lot of people saying that they have no problems and a lot of people with the same problem I have.

Not type of rewiring did the trick. I even moved the main to the other box based on a post I found that stated the main had to be in the first box in line from the breaker box. But actually, that isn’t true since the line and load wires are connected in the aux box… thus making the main box the first in line by bypassing the aux box… but I digress…

Here’s the PSA part of this… DO NOT DO WHAT I DID ABOVE… DO THIS INSTEAD!!!

Based on a single post I found and relaying that with almost 30 years electronics experience this is what I found… Since I connected the main switch first, with the old dumb switch still in line, it is very possible that I have blown out some of the electronics in the main switch. All of the posts that were similar to my problem stated that replacing the main did the trick, not the aux.

So, do it like this ~~~~~~~

Mark all of your wires first… find the line from the breaker box, find the traveler, find the neutral… and mark them for what they are. Then remove both of the old switches.

  1. install the main switch.
  2. connect the aux switch. Traveler wire and neutral only.
  3. connect the line and load wires in the aux box together with a wire nut.

Once you have both switches connected properly, then and only then turn on your power at the breaker.

*** I am going tomorrow to pick up another kit from Lowes. I will replace both switches as I just outlined and I’ll post here as to my results.****

@JDRoberts… I decided to go ahead and grab the GE’s because they were right in front of me, the kit was 15.00 cheaper than buying the two switches separately, and I figured that I could justify the purchase to the wife because the $47.00 price tag was replacing $75.00 worth of smart bulbs in the dining room.

That, and I’m an impatient SOB!

1) always take before photos of the existing wiring including the screw attachments

We all think will remember how it was, but we won’t.

2) make no assumptions about what the wiring “must be”. there are at least eight different ways to hook up a three-way. There won’t even necessarily be a load line to the master. (Really)

Seriously, I know I say this a lot, but you can’t go online, find a diagram, and even if the colors match what’s in your box assume that that’s how your switches are wired.

You have to get a testing tool, and you have to test every segment of every line to figure out exactly what it’s doing. there are no shortcuts to this. No matter what you Google.

The Pretzel Express

With a non-networked switch think of the circuit as one big loop that has been cut in multiple places and twisted back into pretzel shapes. Now, the various switches, both masters and auxes, are stuck into the places where the line was cut. As long as there is some combination of the various Switches that lets current flow from The street to the light and back again, the light can come on.

Think about a toy train set. The kind where the train is running under electrical power and actually switches from one track to another. The train is running around the track. It’s the kind that requires you to manually push a button at each junction to switch the track. You can keep opening and closing different pieces, and as long as the train has some path to get to where it’s going, it won’t derail. And at any given moment there might be a part of the track that the train can’t get to it all, and that’s still OK. If you need to train to get there you switch the track to that section.

The active section might keep changing, and at any one moment some pretzel loop somewhere might be disconnected from the path train is on and not be receiving any current. That’s OK. It will still work. So you can have a big table and a couple of kids running around trying to manually switch the tracks before the train crashes.

That pattern does not work for a networked switch. The reason is that each switch control, instead of just being flipped by The person at that junction, gets its order to switch over the radio. That means it has to have power for the radio so it can hear the next command. And that means (this is the important part) that every part of every loop up to each switch has to have a little current in it at all times. You can cut off current past the point of the radio, but each radio has to have current.

I hope that analogy is clear, because it’s a really important concept. You are taking one of the old pretzel loops that had manual control switches and now you’re replacing it with radio control switches that need to have some current to every switch all the time. (But not necessarily the same level of current that the old switches used.)

That magical Internet drawing

If your particular current pattern was different then the guy Who drew the diagram you found on the Internet, the current may flow differently. So when you put in the new network switches, you might end up with no live current to the master. Or current that keeps getting shut off as the auxiliaries open and close.

You cannot do this work solely from a diagram.You can study the diagram to try to figure out where you want to end up. But you have to test the lines you have to know how the current is flowing in your original set up.

3) wire colors are not mandated in most US jurisdictions. People can and do just pull the last piece a wire out of the box at the end of the day and use it for anything. I’ve seen hotlines that were white wires, I’ve seen travelers that were black wires, I’ve seen switches that had four black lines coming into them and not one of them was a load line. The only way to know what you have is to to test every segment of every wire.

You may find a diagram that works perfectly for the upstairs hallway, but your kitchen turns out to be wired in a completely different flow pattern. Even if it looks exactly the same in the picture. They might reversed the colors that were used downstairs. Plus by some estimates based on time of sale inspections, about one third of US residential wiring is just done wrong. It’s not going to match anybody’s picture.

So there’s no one magic way to do GE switches, or any other kind of switches. At least not in the United States. You just have to work with the wiring that is in front of you. Every single time.

To be honest, the reason why we always take before pictures, is because there’s no telling what the previous guy did! Sometimes you just have to put it back the way it was to get things to work, with the old equipment, and then go all the way back to the circuit box and start working your way forward figure out what the heck is going on.

This is the main reason I don’t give wiring advice on individual set ups on the Internet. I can guess at what might be wrong based on the symptoms you’re saying, and suggest some possibilities to research, but I have no idea what’s actually running through the wires in the picture. And neither do you until you test them.

Your basic principle is very good. You want to start by getting the master switch working. And as @Navat604 often says, the new master will require both the hot and the load, so you have to find those. But depending on how the old switches were wired, honestly they could be anywhere in that big pretzel loop. It’s not about which one comes first. Which one comes first is often important in non-network switches. But once they’re networked , they all have to have some current all the time.

The difference in a networked setup between the master and the aux is that the master controls the load. And it may be that in the old nonnetworked switches the load came in at some random other spot but it worked because by the time the kids were finished running all around the table there was a clear path for the train. That approach does not work for networked switches. So quite often when you take out the nonnetworked three-way, and you put in a networked three-way, you do actually change the way the current flows through that circuit.

So figuring out where the master is going to go is absolutely the first step. And getting it working is absolutely the second step. But as far as what that’s going to look like, there’s no telling, and there’s going to be a lot of variation.

Just sayin’… :fire_engine::ambulance::rotating_light::zap:

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You are absolutely correct on every point. I did fail to mention a few things.

  1. I have a very nice fluke meter that I use all of the time.
  2. I built my house in 2014. During construction I was in the house at least twice daily.
  3. I took pictures while the electricians were wiring the house, and I asked questions.
  4. I took pictures of completed walks before the drywall was hung. I now know where all of my wiring is as well add my plumbing.
  5. I have the copy of the blue prints that my house was built with.

I know very few people have that kind of info available. But based on that info, my experience, what I read, and what I actually see in the boxes, along with my fluke, I got the wiring right.

I believe my screw up was when I installed the master, did not install the slave, and powered in the system.

I’m hoping that the issue is a direct result of my failure and not a symbol of the quality civil of the manufacturer. I’m giving them the benefit of the doubt.

But once I change it all tomorrow, we will see.

Thanks for the response, as always informative, detailed, and I learned something from you.

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I have a feeling that by flipping the old secondary dumb switch after connecting the master switch, you may have sent voltage through the traveler line which the GE switch does not like. Some of them come with a friendly sticker to warn you of this:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41D-T%2Bpf4UL.SY450.jpg

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I agree.

What voltage should be on the traveler wire?

It should just connect between the master switch and the aux switch traveler terminals. I’m not sure what voltage is used to communicate across this, but I’m sure it’s low.

Ok… Is there anyone out there with a three way switch installed that is willing to pull the aux switch and meter a reading on the traveler wire?

I would greatly appreciate it.