Dumb light switches + control panel?

Wiki Projects & Stories
41

[Like the initial post, this is a cross-post. My personal preference is the other forum thread to be the “primary” one, but I will see all responses in both.]

Since everyone has helped me evolve and clarify my needs and just exactly what I’m actually trying to accomplish and why, I’m going to do a mini reboot and lay those needs out again, just to make sure I’m not missing something… And hopefully get more focused answers. The needs are really the same as before, even though there’s some big “on paper” differences than my initial post.

As a TL;DNR, I want to implement smart device user controls so that they appear and operate as if the house had been designed with color smart lighting in mind to begin with. :grinning: As such, I want to maintain both the simplicity and ease of dumb switches, as well as maintain their functionality. In other words, I’ll probably add touch-screens/control panels later, but they will be relegated to a couple of high activity/seating areas and not used as the primary day-to-day way to do the simple stuff (essentially, they’ll be admin panels for family/guests :wink:)

As I see it, I can go two routes. The first could be summarized as “replace all dumb switches with smart switches than can control smart devices and/OR the power”, as follows (all these numbered “1.n”, where my second way of accomplishing things below will be “2.n”):

1.1a) Replace existing dumb switches with powered switches for smart devices (eg to control Hue bulbs - not controlling power).

1.1b) I want to maintain the existing functionality of cutting power to the circuit, for maintenance/emergencies (eg an “air gap”).

1.2) I want to add new switches exist to the house where they don’t currently for controlling smart devices (eg Hue lights).

1.3) I want them to match (including the Bonus item below).

1.4) Some of these switches will need be able to do dimming, so there should be an option for 1.1a, 1.1b AND 1.2 as dimmers (though dimmers may be acceptable everywhere… but, I like the Lutron design options with both dimmer and two-button).

Bonus; I also have a couple dumb devices that I would like to control, and would want the switch to control the power for those. Since there’s only a couple (I believe literally two), this is no longer a priority for me.

I’m getting the feeling that even with mix-matching, getting these requirements would be tricky at best, and only with matching by overall style, as per JDRoberts suggestion of paddle-style switches. If someone presented another option that qualifies, then I must humbly apologize, for I have missed it (but I’m going back through them). Seems the tricky part is wired controllers to signal smart devices.

 

The second route (which really isn’t about “smart devices”) is to maintain separate dumb switches, but not display them prominently on my walls (if I’m picky about wall art… why should I display switches on my walls?!):

[All of these can be summarized as “put smart device switches (eg for Hue bulbs) in front of recessed dumb switches”.]

2,1) Replace the existing switch boxes in the wall with a “recessed” model (maybe like this??),

2.2) Recess the existing switches (possibly with miniaturized models, if that’s a thing),

2.3) Get battery switches for controlling smart devices (eg Hue bulbs) for everywhere (except the two dumb-devices mentioned in “Bonus” above),

2.4) Get (or, hypothetically, make) a wall holder for the battery switches that allow easy removal AND have a cut-out back (like the Hue dimmer or Pico mount, but with a hole in the backside - see below for why),

2.5) Place the battery switches over top the recessed dumb switches, where the hole in the mount allows access to the recessed switches behind.

If I want to get at the switch, I pull off the remote, easy. The only issue I can think of (aside from effort and cost) is if I someone walks off with the remote, it might look ugly/weird. But, they will mostly live on the wall, and I’ll pretend like I have the skill to not to do a hack job on the electrical box and in-line switches.

Just FYI, with route #2, I’m leaning towards Lutron (special thanks to SmartHomePrimer). If I’m not mistaken (for a change) Caseta/Pico allows all of the first route except 1.1a (and half of 1.1b), including Bonus, so it might be nice in case I come across any other places where I need control the power. Or for that matter, scale back my plans on color lighting and just use dumb bulbs.

Again… In general, what I want to accomplish is to design my smart lighting - using color smart bulbs - to be look and work as if the house had been made for them. No superfluous switches, or bulbous mounts over a switch, or mismatched controls, or child-proof locks. If I can’t do it from the “smart switch” route, I’ll just build the smart remotes over the switches… At least, until someone tells me why I that would be a dumbass thing to try (annnnd… queue JD :wink:).

42

Frankly you are REALLY over complicating everything!!!

43

How so? For wanting my house to have clean and consistent lighting controls?

Is there some other and easier/cheaper way to accomplish that?

edit: With color. I acknowledge that’s a major fly in the ointment. If I was fine with white lights… Yea, far easier and cheaper options abound. But I want color. /edit

44

No. You can have clean consistent controls. It can be simplified just a bit.

Requirements:
Colored Bulbs – gotcha
Consistent styling of switches – gotcha

Anymore requirements? Once you define the requirements then a solution can be designed. Until then there’s dozens of possible options.

45

Yes, one more. Maintaining the existing functionality of dumb switches, with “air gap” power control. Aside from @JDRoberts saying it’d probably meet code [to remove dumb switches in favor of battery operated remotes], I’m not going to flip a breaker when the smart lights start doing weird crap in the middle of the night or whatever. (Or, personally unsafe or not, if I need to do simple maintenance on a light fixture or fan.)

edit: That’s the other fly (see edit above). From what I’ve seen, I can accomplish power + smart device control. I can accomplish an air gap. I think maybe I can accomplish both, but only with paddle-style switches, but still not sure on specifics.

46

For starters. Nobody flips a breaker when changing a light bulb unless they are really that afraid. But that’s not the point.

There’s a few things that have to be defined. So we have the basic requirements.

Recap: Color Bulbs, Consistent Control design, Air Gap (really is that important? Most normal switches don’t have this…but anyways)

First steps:
Do you plan on using any sensors or other devices to automate your lighting (motion sensors, door sensors, Lux sensors). If so it’s a good time to choose a protocol technology (z-wave, zigbee, insteon) for this. This will help or lead to a choice in control options (I’m saying “control” because lots of terminology is flying around about switches and remotes and wired switches and smart switches. There’s a big difference here but lets simplify and just say “control” option and get to the details later).

47

I’ll defer to @Navat604 And the other electrical experts in the community, But as far as I know, most dumb light switches don’t have air gaps and most electricians wouldn’t trust them if they did. (Insteon famously had a model line of smart switches that had an air gap that didn’t work.)

Instead, people just turn off the branch at the breaker, which you can also do with any of the mains powered smart devices if you need to do electrical work or if you suspect the device itself is malfunctioning. The “existing functionality” of dumb switches is maintained in exactly the same way – – by throwing the circuit breaker.

An air gap switch is at best a convenience, and at worse another potential point of failure. I personally wouldn’t make that a hardline requirement when selecting devices, but that’s just me.

48

Valid points. I have never had a switch with an “Air gap” until I installed my GE Z-Wave switches.

As stated the air gap only cuts the power to the load connected to the switch not to the entire circuit or other legs coming off that circuit. So it really is pointless in my opinion. I can change a light bulb without sticking my finger in the socket :smile:

49

(Answers @JDRoberts point as well.) Yes. If I built a house that had smart lighting, I’d still put in switches for power control on the individual circuits. I probably wouldn’t put them in the same place, or group them the same way (partially to save on wire, and partially for aesthetics) but I’d have them. Just like water valves at each sink (but not for an entire bathroom), they’re more convenient and safer than only having a handful of master switches.

edit: And again, if something goes wrong at 2 am and the lights go hay-wire, the WAF is already shot… If there’s no way to easily cut power without turning off the entire bedroom… There’d be no recovering from that! /edit

Yes. edit: Might be obvious, but any color options would be controlled from automation, probably supplemented by a couple SmartTile setups later, not to be wall mounted. /edit

Fair enough, but I don’t know enough to make that judgement, and at this point I don’t have solutions for any one standard, let alone more than one.

50

You misunderstand what a switch is/does and what a circuit is. The switch directs power from a leg coming from a circuit to a “load”. That load would be a light or other electric device. The switch is a controller that allows for on/off. There’s no on/off of your power outlets and there’s no air gap either. There’s probably no air gap on your existing light switches. Go look at them. This misuse or misunderstanding of terminology is causing lots of confusion between everyone.

Going forward:
We are not talking about “Circuits”. That’s more complex than you want to get into.
We are talking about “switches” which are “Control Points” for basic on/off functionality
We are talking about colored light bulbs here on to be referred to as “Smart Bulbs”

You said you are interested in sensors. So this leads to a protocol selection which will lead/drive a lot of other choices. One of the drivers for this will be the choice of a “Control System”. Now the “Control System” is often referred to as a “hub” or a “bridge” depending on it’s capabilities. You are on the SmartThings forum and Hubitat so there’s interest. Do you own either? If so that will help direct the conversation and better direct you for getting proper answers whether it would be on this community or the Hubitat community.

There is a reason why I’m starting from (almost) the beginning on this. I think there’s a lot of information that was glossed over or not fully understood which has ramifications with future options and choice so please be patient there is a reason for this.

51

Actually, yes, there is - GFPC outlets, and outlet strips. Obviously GPFC isn’t the same thing, but does show that breaker boxes alone aren’t good enough. And I’ve never seen an outlet strip without a switch. To be blunt, I would in fact put a power switch on outlets, if it weren’t too expensive. edit: No, never mind, I wouldn’t. The “air gap” is to UNPLUG :yum: I can’t “unplug” a ceiling fan^1, or (most) light sockets/fixtures.

^1 Some of my fans can be unplugged, but that’s not a good thing! They should be on switches! /edit

edit: [struck for not being relevant.] The air gap would be to unplug, but we can agree to disagree. /edit

Regardless, [I get your point but…] no offense, but it’s not something I need to defend. I hear you. I hear JDRoberts. For my house, and my use, I want the backup. Maybe you’re good enough at developing automations to not need them. I’m 98% positive at some point, I will be very glad I held firm on this.

Agreed.

I own both, though Hubitat hasn’t left the box yet. My intention is to use Hubitat, but… If ST solves my issues better, I’d gladly buy a second one.

I currently have a handful of Xiaomi sensors, and a couple ST multisensors, none currently implemented (I’m moving slowly, and having trouble making the time to test things on non-critical areas of the house first). I also have some wifi power strips that are working just fine for my needs, but ithat choice was purely financial. I avoid wifi devices.

You’re good! I’m assuming you aren’t wasting your own time asking me pointless questions :smile:.

52

I’m sorry, I don’t know what that is in this context.

53

Should have been GFPC, but… It’s off topic. I shouldn’t have said anything about it at all :roll_eyes:

54

Ok… terminology again. GFCI Outlets have a “mini-breaker” inside them. They are special and used for specific purposes (generally around wet areas). There’s always exceptions.

Power strips have a “switch” and a “breaker” built into them. Not even close to the same as an in wall outlet. Stop changing topics. If you want a “smart power strip” they exist and you can expand onto that later.

Back on topic:
You have a Hubitat and ST. Pick the one you want to use each has different capabilities and some things that are discussed as possible on one hub may not be possible on the other.

Before you go buy a bunch of sensors you need to pick your protocol technology. There’s a large reason for this because it will influence your choices/options for how to go about the build out of the rest of your project.

I’m going with the basis of protocol choice being limited to Z-Wave and Zigbee based upon the “hub” you have and what you have listed of the Xioami and ST sensors those are Zigbee. Do you plan on extending the Zigbee mesh and using that as your primary, or are you going to make a turn and go with z-wave?

I’m keeping each posting relatively short on purpose to make each section easy to digest and also easy to quote/reference. Now it would be good to decide on your Hub and moving the conversation to the appropriate community.

55

John,

As you and others have mentioned, color bulbs are your plans’ Achilles Heel. Have you considered possibly getting your “color fix” from Smart Color Bulbs and LED Strips, used as accent lighting, instead of main lighting for a room? This might make your overall design much simpler and meet your requirements.

  1. Use Smart Switches/Dimmers (with air-gap) to control the load of traditional overhead dumb bulbs

  2. Use Smart Color Bulbs in table/floor lamps (these will have a manual cutoff switch built into the lamp)

  3. Use Smart Color LED strips as accent lighting (above and below kitchen cabinets, inside an entertainment system, etc… (these can simply be unplugged from the wall should the need arise)

  4. Use a combination of Automations (i.e. Rules/Routines with the hub), Tablets/Phones, Hue Remotes, and Voice Control (Alexa) to control all of the color lighting. You could even add a few Pico remotes mounted onto empty wall space to provide ‘traditional on/off/dimming’ for the color bulbs/LED strips in the room.

This would seem to be a relatively low-cost, simple, and effective solution that leaves your walls and wiring fairly ‘normal’.

Thoughts?

56

Even though ST can run lighting locally, I’d prefer that mission-critical usage be on Hubitat.

Just FYI, not sure if you already have seen from prior posts, but I’m heavily invested in Hue as well. [NM, it’s obvious you have.]

Between ZigBee or ZWave, I have no foundation on which to make a choice.

However, that was one reason that had slipped my mind on why I wanted switches that send network requests to be powered.

Lol

… You available for math tutoring for my son?? …

This is good. I feel a bit remedial, but… I am remedial.

57

I mean, there’s not a second that goes by on this thread that I don’t :blush:

Suffice it to say there are numerous reasons why I want them, and there’s a plausible chance at least one of them is a decent reason.

If you want to debug my reasoning, I can try to explain them.

58

Must admit that I wanted color as well. Mood lighting, alerts, cool factor,…Blah blah blah. I ended up with some smart bulbs and LED strips installed in various locations. Was cool for the first month.

Now, 2 years later, I don’t think they have been any color turned on for over 18 months…

Accent lighting using LED strips or Bloom bulbs would be my suggestion. However, keep your main lighting in the 2700kv-5000kv- (Warm White-Day Light) and use Smart Dimmers.

YMMV

59

If color bulbs are your main driver then it’s easy. Stay within the Hue Ecosystem and everything becomes VERY simple. No need for switches and wiring or anything else. Your phone is your “remote” to control them and add an Amazon Echo or Google Home for voice control and do all of your automations using IFTTT and you’ll be all set. Nothing more than the Hue Bridge is required. You can use Hue sensors and this keeps everything very basic.

60

I have four Hue dimmers. My automations are through ST (to be migrated to Hubitat as possible and time allows), mostly using WebCore, though pretty rudimentary for now. (Just moved, which crippled the effectiveness of much of my automations - hence my sudden and urgent need to fix crap.) I love the Hue dimmers, and they have good WAF, but they don’t solve all my requirements.

First, they’re limited in their control, since they can only be assigned to two “rooms”. I can’t do anything fancy, like using different buttons or types of presses (double tap, hold, etc.) to control different devices, and limited on mixing and matching lights between different switches. This is a minor issue that I don’t foresee causing any real problem. edit: I have a rule that controls can’t require a manual to use. Weird buttons presses are a no-no for general usage, but this would be handy for color control, since guests etc. won’t need to control color. That can be solved by using Pico remotes instead. /edit

Second, I have light switches in the wall we can’t use - but need to be kept if we need to cut the power to the fixtures.

Third, they [the Hue dimmers] wouldn’t be matched to anything used for things like ceiling fans (with in-line control switches installed in the fan housing). This is easily solved by changing to Pico remotes.

Honestly, it seems the simplest fix is… my second route above (post #41). Keep the dumb switches to control the power, but hide them behind smart switches that don’t control the power… That leads to another problem with Hue dimmers…

Fourth, there’s no matching option to control power like for vent fans or anywhere I might realize I actually don’t want smart bulbs. Again, Caseta switches and Pico remotes can solve this one. edit: And with an in-line smart switch, this shouldn’t be much of an issue… Different applications merit a different design style - but it’s a great bonus. /edit

Any rate, I presented this option, and you replied “Frankly you are REALLY over complicating everything!!!” I don’t know enough to gainsay that, so… By all means, let me know if there’s a flaw in it, or if there’s an easier and/or cheaper option that doesn’t leave useless switches, multiple different applications (eg lights and smart fan controllers), and allows fixture-level control of power. I’d rather you tell me I’m wrong, than figure it out hundreds of dollars later!!