Not trying to argue, but define “average user”. By ST, that user has 12 devices, so likelihood of him/her turning on the the “complex rule”…are slim to none. As for the “average power user” there are a few options, either groovy their way out, which is not terrible hard as @bamarayne recently discovered, or use RM, or dip into the community piggy bank for smart apps to get their devices to talk to each other. Yes, it would be nice to have a fancy UI app, but you have to take in consideration the benefit-cost(effort). I am all for pitching in to contribute, but …
I don’t find that easy for even advanced users. Which is one reason I really enjoy helping people puritan this thing. Sometimes it’s even a challenge to me… But I’ve done amazing stuff with it.
I’d love to see tnt transformed into adv easy to kebabs that anyone can understand… Kind of like smartrules, but with the extra power of RM
Mine did the sane thing… But I also write ms access database interface too.
LOL I used to do that, various sql frontends for relatively simple stuff. My thing now is visio scripting for VERY large network designs. Even though I’m capable of those things, I still can’t program worth sh*t.
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advanced users in what? Anyone with little exposure to logical expressions can craft the most sophisticated rule, once they figure out how and when to toggle which button.
Not looking to boast, I am an electronics engineer with background in embedded software, but range all the way to SQL admin/programming, web programming with js, angular, jquery - although I am the spartan kind of guy, I write my own frameworks, c, c++, c#, linux, php, asp, blah blah, etc. Not to mention i386 and (newer to it) arm (dis)assembly and reverse engineering 
I’m my own one man army. Also deep background in telecom, ISDN stacks (injected code into a software that worked with CAS interface to “teach” it ISDN, without having the source code to the software). Think I can handle groovy?
After I bought my first ST hub (a month ago), it took me two days to learn Groovy, connect (ahem ahem) to AT&T and integrate my Digital Life alarm into ST. I am new to RM and I love its power but I hate its cumbersomeness. Is that even a word? I am the kind of guy who quickly codes his way out, so most of my things work on my code rather than RM.
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LOL, I have a good friend like you, learns a new language in a day kinda thing. He makes me look stupid, granted I’m not exactly Albert Einstein…
He is color blind so I’m useful when he’s doing UI’s. 
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Very true. It takes practice, but at the same time you have to be able to think like the machine. A lot of people, ok, the majority of people can’t process pure logic.
But, I finished my first advanced electronics degree at age 19. Logic programmers, adders, servo mechs, and the always fun rf wave propagation have always come pretty natural to me.
But like you said, most of us here are not average users… Hell a lot of us aren’t even average humans
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Forgot to mention, I am paranoid about UI. Exaggerated attention to details. Not an easy curse…
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You just summed up American’s in general. Following instructions is not in most peoples DNA.
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@bamarayne I specialized in digital electronics, so yeah, logical gates galore. Here’s a brain teaser for you, can you write the table of truth for NAND with three parameters?
A NAND B NAND C
He he
Welcome to SmartThings, the worst place for perfectionists!
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May I hack this website just to give you two likes on this comment?
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Hopefully you don’t find ST akin to the 7th circle of hell. We need all the developers we can get.
I wish I knew half of what you’re probably forgotten about programming.
You tic tacs always amazed me. You need a hardware guy, I can build it.
I suck at coding, but I’m really good at deciphering it. I know, I’m bass ackwards
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I believe some of the push back you are getting from some users has to do with how you are phrasing things. It comes across as pompous. I don’t think you mean it that way but that’s how it comes across.
It appears that you aren’t familiar with RM but you keep making judgements. You have brought up three issues that RM can do that you said it couldn’t or should be done differently. Was RM perfect? No. But it filled a gap that didn’t exist. You also weren’t around during it’s evolution. If you understood that better I think you would understand how it ended up the way it did. Backwards compatibility was a big factor.
If you want to build a “better” rules engine that’s great, the more options we have the better. I think everyone will support you. Hopefully the platform will support your app as well and you won’t have to constantly tweak your code to work around platform issues before you give up.
My point is don’t knock someone else’s work. It’s much easier to build off of someone else’s idea/work than it is to come up with one on your own.
I wish you the best of luck and hope this works out for you.
Just one persons opinion.
P.S. - I have an advanced degree in burger making and can run two batches of fries at the same time all while answering the drive-thru. I just got promoted to assistant manager and am now making the big bucks!
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I can handle the electronics part, schematics, PCB design, I was even building my own PCBs using acid and all. It’s the mechanical part I am not good at. I can’t really build a plastic box that I can be perfectly proud of. There’s always a little defect in it My license project was based on a Microchip PIC microcontroller. Built from scratch, software included. Not groovy!
I can’t remember the anagram for resistor color bands. But I can troubleshoot a digital circuit card without a damn schematic. My electronic countermeasures instructors said I was freakin hardware rainman
Lol, the government says I can not build the hardware to do that anymore.
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