Concerns about reliability and developer support: Should I return it?

Hue are nice for accent lights and scenes. If you want colors for notifications like blink color when something happens, LIFX are better. Compare the IFTTT channels and you’ll find big differences.

My wife makes fun of me for my ST hobby but then also complains when she has to use a light switch in rooms I haven’t automated.

We can’t win.

4 Likes

It’s not the automation is the time you spent on it. Make it look seamless and that it takes no time & effort. You’ll get better results, or at least I did…

She didn’t know I spent time on it, she wasn’t home :smile:

1 Like

@bravenel 's points are all very good. If you enjoy tinkering and have the time to keep the system running, and are willing to put up with the fact that it may just break every 10 days or so for a few hours, you’ll probably enjoy SmartThings a lot. The community is excellent and The platform gives you a lot of options. Before I got sick (I’m quadriparetic, use a wheelchair with limited hand function) I would have enjoyed it too.

However, these days I need home automation to solve some very real practical issues, so reliability is a lot higher on my priority list. I can’t take the batteries out of the sensors on my own, for example, which means if all a glitch requires is a “simple reset” of the devices I have to pay somebody else to do that.

The one place I would have to respectfully disagree with Bruce now is the idea that things are getting better. They’re not, at least with regard to reliability. Back in August and September, I really liked SmartThings. I spend most of my life in one of two rooms, and I use the home automation stuff almost constantly as I control both lights and my home entertainment devices with it. So I’m very aware when problems occur.

Beginning in late October, we began to get platform updates that significantly reduced reliability. We tried working with support for about three weeks, but by late November we started taking things off of SmartThings.

Last week, all notifications failed for several hours one day. This week, yesterday, there were multiple major failures in several different SmartThings features. If I had to guess, I would guess that within the next 10 days there will be some other major failure of some other feature that will last for several hours. That’s life with SmartThings these days.

That doesn’t mean it isn’t still fun to play with if you like that sort of thing. I’d say it’s probably 80% reliable, which may be more than enough for many people.

When it works, it’s my favorite home automation system. It’s just that these days it fails too often to meet my own particular needs. But that’s just me. I recognize that it may be a highly desirable system for someone else. It’s not a bad system. It’s just not a good match for my own needs.

Different Systems Have Different Design Philosophies

In contrast, for example, I pay for a separate security system which has had maybe two false alarms in about eight years. And no other failures at all.

I’ve also had an echo for almost a year and it’s had only one day with a few minimal problems. And I’ve had a Phillips hue bridge for even longer which has had no failures over that time. I have several other systems as well, including an irrigation system, a medical monitoring system, harmony, HomeKit, IFTTT, etc. None of these has had more than two or three failures a year, and typically less. SmartThings has two or three failures a month, and often more.

Again, I acknowledge that many of the failures are relatively minor for most people. They might just require closing the app and restarting it, or doing something through the IDE, or resetting a device. It’s just that all of those things are physically difficult for me, so I notice them a lot more than someone else might. Like I said, different things work for different people, and that includes the amount of maintenance effort they are willing to put in every week.

Smartthings has placed their emphasis on versatility and the addition of new features. So when you buy into their system, if those factors are high on your personal priority list, you’ll probably be happy. If your personal priorities rank reliability and transparency very high, you may find it a less appropriate match. Only you can make that determination. :sunglasses:

6 Likes

Also, since you have a technical background, you might find the following analysis interesting:

1 Like

I have lots of hue bulbs. But I picked up a single Lifx 1000 RGB bulb for a bargain price of £20 and its my favourite bulb. far brighter than my hues.

My main advice not replace normal switches for tablets like I did in one big bang at first. When there is a failure of ST I can’t turn on off my lights easily :slight_smile: and that gives me a headache from the wife.

As it turns out whilst writing this she just shouted up at me asking why the kitchen lights haven’t turned on. As said for the most part it works. But I don’t get a week without an issue of some kind, and the inevitable grief.

Well it is my second day owning this system and it has already failed me once. I set up two smart lighting rules for my office

  1. Full brightness when motion is detected between sunrise and sunset in home mode
  2. Dim brightness when motion is detected between sunset and sunrise in home mode

When I went to bed I set the mode to “night” and tried to trigger the lights. That worked fine, the lights did not come on. In the morning I set the mode to “home” (well after sunrise, 9am) and walked into the office. The lights came on dim per the nighttime rule instead of full brightness per the daytime rule. Next time I triggered the lights they followed the daytime rule.

This does not inspire confidence. It seems to have already failed at a very basic task.

I am going to investigate OpenHAB and Zipato while I am still in the return window for my SmartThings hub. Those seem to be the only two alternatives with comparable features.

Every system has pluses and minuses, it just depends what you need and where you live.

OpenHAB, for example, doesn’t have zigbee support. The most comparable to SmartThings in terms of the devices supported is probably Lowe’s Iris, but that does have a $10/month fee. It also doesn’t support custom programming, so if that’s the part you’re interested in it’s not a good match.

As mentioned, the following thread discusses different controller options:

As many said yesterday, SmartThings does well in some areas while it fails in others. Unfortunately, you just stepped on the bomb. Using schedules is not SmartThings’ forte. If reliability factor is important to you, then I suggest paying close attention to your return window. But if the cool factor is important to you (with questionable reliability) then just find a way to limit hard schedules for your automations. There are many other options that have proved to be more reliable in the SmartThings world (lux level, IFTTT integration, offsetting sunset/sunrise times, etc).

BTW, if you are looking to dim lights based on modes/lux, you might find @Mike_Maxwell’s app very useful. Been using it it for months with great results…

3 Likes

My $0.02…

So you can qualify the validity of my experiences relative to your own–My system utilizes an ST hub with GE and Cree bulbs (Zigbee), GE Z-wave switches, Z-wave plug modules, Kwikset Zwave locks, Ecobee3 thermostat, Amazon Echo, DLink WiFi cameras. I actively use IFTTT, as well. Next steps will be more motion sensing and A/V integration through Logitech Harmony…

In my opinion, Smartthings Hub V2 (US) is very good at managing Z-wave and Zigbee devices (which is a unique strength of the hardware), in my short experience (about a month with the device). I compare this to industrial automation systems with which I have worked for years as an engineer in a production setting, not other home automation systems. So as automation goes, this is pretty reliable.

I have found it less reliable in interactions with other devices (WiFi thermostat, Samsung smart phone, WiFi cameras, etc.). Amazon Echo is the exception to this statement, as the two work together quite well.

I might also add that my ST-managed system does not incorporate any ST-branded devices, and it still is remarkably consistent. This is quite impressive to me.

Based upon these experiences, I have gravitated toward relying on ST to solely manage the Zigbee and Z-wave side of my system. I rely on IFTTT and Echo to integrate these devices through respective ST channels with WiFi or other devices (smart phone presence is a good example). Sure, I have experienced occasional inconsistencies, but most of those have been a result of my decisions on how to structure, not a failure of any of the devices…and I was able to minimize, if not eliminate, by adjusting my system architecture.

One thing I notice is that the open architecture of this system is often held against it…if the system were evaluated solely on approved devices and apps, it would probably receive much higher praise. However, ST is open and allows for active development, which leads to issues common with “prototype” devices and “beta” software, in some cases. This is great for development, but tends to impact reliability and consistency, and is often related back to ST.

I do have one primary advantage over many here, however. The only other interested party in my household is my teenage son, who is 110% behind the automation effort, and whose main issue with the whole system is that Echo cannot yet take on the voice and/or answer to the name of HAL or the computer from Star Trek…

3 Likes

If I may add to this post, just try it and give it a good shot (not just one or two days). ST is a good system that needs improvement, but most of the times it works. Like others have posted, it is just that when it doesn’t, you feel like it is the apocalypse and you’ve been robbed at gunpoint when you bought this. But then again, it usually works.

Will it work for you, your WAF and your home? Hard to tell. Only way of knowing is trying and take advantage of the 30-day return period. Just a small advice, go easy on the setup. Go slow and try using only the “official” device types and SmartApps at first. Then if you are happy, dig into the community devices and SmartApps.

Just keep in mind, there is no clear winner out there in the HA world right now. This is still the wild west and it is not going to improve overnight. Other systems are also good, but don’t think you may get a better experience on a different platform because it may not be the case. All of them have their pros and cons. You’ll just have to see which one suits you better.

2 Likes

Unfortunately it was the official “Smart Lighting” SmartApp which failed the first time I tried to use it. That left a bad taste in my mouth.

Looking around at some of the alternatives however I agree with you – it is still the wild west and nothing seems to be a clear winner at the moment. Zipato is very interesting but appears to have a much smaller following and reliability problems of its own. Vera seems like it took a nose dive when they launched the VeraEdge and the new version of their UI. OpenHAB looks really interesting but also like a total pain in the ass to set up and likely a low WAF due to rough UI.

I guess I still have a couple weeks of return period to evaluate SmartThings further, and I guess I can’t go wrong buying Z-Wave or Zigbee hardware since they (at least Z-Wave) are pretty much universally supported.

3 Likes

“Smart Lighting” == “Local Processing” - while it’s great feature to have, is NOT to be overwhelmed or else it bites where it matters …like rapid WAF decrease. So keep things very simple in “Smart Lighting” (E.G. motion active, then switch on). For anything else use other apps. (hint, hint you’d really enjoy Rule Machine if you don’t feel like getting code dirty, just yet.

Even after you start crafting your own apps, you’d still find Rule Machine a quick and easy way to get things done…And while I am at “SmartThings’ Community Best”, if you ever want a nice looking dashboard, check out SmartTiles. If you are a fan of widgets and maybe you don’t like the stock Android app, check SharpTools. I am sure there are many other great apps around, but these are my favorites…

2 Likes

I am on the fence with ST. I initially was going to use it as a security system but quickly realized it was entirely too unreliable to be used for that purpose and had a professional, monitored system installed. That let me remove most of my open/close and motion sensors so I don’t have to deal with those freaking out anymore. I do use the convenience features, but would never trust ST to control HVAC or locks. Others may disagree but I’m cautious by nature.

I like the convenience features a lot and they work most of the time. At sunset, certain lights in the house turn on and dim themselves. When I get close to the house at night, the driveway lights come on. I get a reminder text if I’ve left the garage door open for too long. I can turn off lights from bed when I’m about to go to sleep. These things are nice but things I can live without. So when ST breaks, I just live without them until they’re fixed (or sometimes not fixed).

Personally, I’ve decided that I won’t buy any additional ST devices as I would definitely consider moving on to something more reliable when and if a more reliable, affordable solution becomes available. I am also going to replace my 5 ST moisture detectors as I consider that critical and, as mentioned, don’t feel comfortable using ST devices for anything critical. I now think of ST as an expensive toy. Fun (and sometimes frustrating) to play with but no longer a necessity. That’s not how ST markets the product but I think that’s the reality for some users.

I read somewhere that ST is now offering a paid monitoring solution that relies on their platform. Given my experiences, I can’t image that’s going to go well but it may incent them to slow down and fix the foundation before adding additional feature, sales channels, etc. Then again, Samsung may push them so hard that they have to just keep furiously building on what I consider to be a shaky foundation.

One of the best things about ST is this forum and I wholeheartedly applaud them for making this available and allowing users to share candidly. I think they also try to be transparent about problems when they arise. If this forum was to go away, I’d likely abandon ST immediately.

In short, I wouldn’t trust ST for anything mission critical but its a fun solution for non-critical tasks. The IDE and ability to write or use custom code are also nice. I truly hope ST becomes a rock solid solution someday but recent events suggest that’s not going to happen anytime soon. Hopefully I’ll still be a user if/when they get it right.

2 Likes

I seriously doubt that Samsung has any interest in getting into the security business. Slapping a chip on an expensive TV to call it IoT ready sounds more like it. I think both will be as successful solutions as v2 is!

Yup… two partnerships, actually; Scout and ADT.

Suddenly SmartThings has real B2B (business-to-business) relationships to deal with, not just B2C (consumer), so these will be very interesting times ahead.

Not to mention that Samsung TVs sell at a rate that approaches millions of units per month … that could result in a huge increase in SmartThings Accounts. Wow.

And pretty much guarantees they will never catch up, never get this to work properly. The Samsung acquisition serves Samsung’s interests, which certainly do not include our interests for a viable, reliable HA system. I think @scottinpollock is right. It doesn’t work, after all of this time and effort, it’s totally flaky, totally unreliable.

It can’t reliably turn on a light at sunset or at 7:00 AM. It can’t stay working without huge effort on almost a daily basis. That’s junk.

2 Likes

Wait, whahh? What happened to the eternal optimist? Did someone just kidnapped Bruce? Sounds like your system has been hit hard these past few days…Sorry, man!

2 Likes

That confirms it. Every ST user eventually comes to the dark side once in a while…

@imagio for WAF, what the others said about setting low expectations is good advice. The weekly chaos is a point of humor for us. It is what it is, totally unpredictable. Just setup your devices and smartapps so they can’t ruin your dinner with company, or magic time, and all will be well…

4 Likes