Virtual 3 way, no neutral, no traveler?

Aeon labs says they don’t think the GE switches can pair with each other and probably not a GE with an auxiliary linear. The GE aux is a direct line switch/no wireless talking, you need a trailer wire which my house inconveniently doesn’t use. Anywhere.

There isn’t a plethora of information on the pairing of switches out there even though there was a somewhat helpful thread ion this forum. So afaik, I can’t use a GE switch in a direct paring and I haven’t bought an aux 2gig/linear to test it.

Every certified zwave device has a “conformance statement” publicly posted on the Z wave alliance website.

So you can just look up and see whether the device supports association or not. I wouldn’t take a competitor’s word for it. It’s up to each manufacturer what they want to support in each model.

Some GE switches definitely support association, although some only do for one association group. But check each model. But it can only be associated with another switch which also supports association.

Nothing can pair via association with a Linear switch, including another Linear, because they didn’t implement association support.

Also zwave plus switches have considerably longer range does classic zwave, which might help in your situation. So that’s worth taking into account as well.

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Absolutely not. Nowhere did I suggest you’ve made it up or tried to infringe on your rights. In fact, I’ve done fair share of complaining myself. I’m just offering you a solution based on the requirement that you’ve stated yourself. The point is that there are many different automation solutions on the market and there’s no “one size fits all”. If SmartThings doesn’t do what you want to do, why waste your time? Try something else.

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I’m stubborn. Other people have it working so why shouldn’t mine? It works sometimes why not all the time. But I really am at the point where if I don’t get some sort of break through soon I’m dropping it. I’m pretty sure I’ve used one of your custom device types (I have your polling app installed but I’m not sure I needed it, though I think I’m actively using something else). I appreciate the community support and that’s the only reason I’m still here. My mono price motion and temp sensor wouldn’t be working fully otherwise, my thermostat which works 80% of the time wouldn’t work at all even though it’s identical to an officially supported model but a different (and much larger brand, ironically). But I’ve gone to add another big switch app to make a “true three way” as was just suggested and

  1. It’s not where it used to be in the old app
  2. I have a switch reporting its in when it’s off but luckily it was easily fixed
  3. I have a garage door reporting its been opening for a couple hours now. The only way I know how or have been told how to fix it is remove and re-add. So I have to uninstall all the smart apps, do a device exclusion a few times, hope that works (it doesn’t work more often than it does) and then re add and build the apps again.

I don’t want to quit but it’s almost like smart things is begging me too. so this is my last ditch effort to rant and maybe find work lasting solutions.

I don’t like quitting is all.

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Can you describe your use case? What exactly are you trying to do?

Pair a main switch wired into some lights with a second (technically) main, not auxiliary, switch wired elsewhere. It’s wired for power and directly controls nothing. The lighting in the house is awful, there are no travelers and I wanted to directly pair both switches via the minimote. That failed so I was gong to buy an auxiliary linear to try and lair the GE v1 dimmer with the linear wd00z aux switch seeing as a main switch might pair with an aux BUT the main switch has to be that specific GE switch since there’s no neutral at that location. GE only makes a direct wire aux switch which my type of wiring doesn’t use (no travelers).

So I want to make a three way that would work even when the hub doesn’t.

To be clear it somewhat works with the Big Switch app but if the hub goes down, the secondary switch is useless

If have to find the website but I have linear documentation in front of me describing how to pair a main and aux linear switch using a minimote.

It reads “technical bulletin TB2014-001 ISSUE DATE 2/5/2014” at the top


That’s the bulletin

Ok, “technically a main” means it controls a load directly. Yours is not going to. It’s an auxiliary. That’s fine, just know what you’re trying to do. Yours is going to send a message to the other switch (the actual main) and that main switch will control the load.

You might be able to do this with two Cooper switches if you use the battery powered aux, RF9500 As long as they are within one zwave hop of each other. No physical traveler wires between them. But I have to check if both support zwave association.

I believe you could also do this with some of the Leviton models, but not all.

The Linear is useless to you because it doesn’t support association.

It is probably not possible to do this as you describe it with the GE main switch in place, because that switch needs to be paired with another GE aux switch with physical traveler wires to work without the hub.

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To clarify, what’ve meant by “technically a main” is that it’s not an auxiliary switch, it’s only acting as one. Technically it’s a main switch acting as auxiliary…

Does the main cooper switch require neutral? Because I can’t use it find does. (I’ve probably researched it and it probably requires it. The name is familiar).

And according to linear and amazon comments, linear supports it. Il link the website since your not he first to say that.

Here it is, sent out to third party installers:

Paging @codytruscott … Do Linears support association?

I’ll look into both. Thanks. Incandescent shouldn’t be a problem, my LEDs total 60w on that circuit which should be plenty. The current GE dimmer is incandescent only as well and actually films down completely without issue, surprisingly. The bulbs are Philips though so that may help. Anyway I’ve never heard of a zwave Incandescent dimmer that required more than 20-40 watts to work properly of the load was LED or CFL.

I’d absolutely love to do much more that schedule lights but at this point of the staples connect is my best option i may take what I can get with it. From what I remember the app was nothing to desire. (Isn’t that the D-Link hub?)

Do you have any experience with Wink?

Darn, I just saw the wired Cooper that doesn’t require a neutral requires a traveller. That’s going to be true of most switches that don’t require a neutral. My bad, sorry I’ll fix it above.

OK, I can’t find a switch that doesn’t need a neutral and doesn’t need a physical traveler wire and will work when the hub is unavailable.

Basically, if they don’t need a neutral, they need a traveler. And if they don’t need a traveler, they need a neutral. You have to power the radio somehow. Unless the Cooper RF 9500 supports Association, it’s a battery power switch. But I’m running out of ideas.


Score! The Cooper battery-operated auxiliary can be directly associated to a Cooper master. No neutral, no traveler. Put it anywhere.

BTW, you could try associating the Cooper RF9500 with your existing GE master. I think you can get on/off, but not dimming from the Aux. there are some people using the Cooper RF9500 with SmartThings, with limited feature support. You’ll still need a Minimote to make the association.

If you want to try Staples Connect, first verify that Cooper will work with them. Get their newest hub, the other is being phased out.

As for wink, the company is literally in bankruptcy. The auction is next month. It may continue but I wouldn’t go with it right now. Also, one of the main consumer complaints about them is lag when you turn on a switch. So that would concern me in your situation.

I did find Lutron Vizias that should work although they are incandescent only, but I wanted to avoid their slightly different style and the one direction switch.

I see a white Linksys and a tall black d link staples hub. Did you have one in mind?

Leviton Vizia, not Lutron, I think.

No. Not as described in the manual. The WT supports one group, not 4 and the WD supports 0 groups.

From linear support who are currently working to resolve my 40 switch installation.

Hi Cody,

So I spoke to the software engineers and basically what happened was some of the features had to be removed to make room for additional aspects. That is why the associated grouping was removed.

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Moved you thread hijackers you!


Oh, and just to be clear…

The reason why you can’t just put any old switch that supports association in the auxiliary position is because you want Dimming from the auxiliary.

If you just want the auxiliary as an on/off switch, it could be pretty much any device that supported association. Since your GE switch also supports association I believe. It could be a contact sensor or a simple switch. Triggering an auxiliary would send a direct “basic” command to the GE switch, no direct wiring required.

The problem comes when you want to add dimming controls in both switch locations. That’s when you need an advanced connection, which is why we start looking at the Leviton Vizia or the Cooper switches. Their manufacture proprietary stuff includes much fancier dimming controls in the directly associated pair.


You’re right, NSS. SmartThings isn’t getting it done. And, asking people to upgrade their hub for $100 AND telling them to, in essence, start their configuration over again, is stupid. How about a hub that can be upgraded?

Compared to the old X10 system, SmartThings is great. However, that’s like comparing a Model T to a Yugo. With Samsung backing them and home automation catching fire, it’s hard to understand what’s going on at SmartThings.

@WTSL, you are completely off base with this. I’ve been following the V2 threads since it was vaporware, and i do remember ST stating there is no reason to upgrade from V1 to V2 in the immediate future. Secondly ST also let users know that if you chose to upgrade that there is no migration path yet, but it is being working on.

This is a ridiculous question for consumer products, outside of your PC what appliance do you own that is upgradeable? Cellphone… Nope, DVD Player… Nope, TV… Nope, Microwave… Nope. Can you seriously name a single hardware upgradable appliance that ~$100.

I’m not saying SmartThings is perfect, but so far your concerns are limited to your own unrealistic expectations.