Is this the beginning of the end of my 5 years+ with ST?

I think that’s the wrong question or assumption.

I question why “power users” actually think they are influencers in the smart home market - or more relevantly, whether they have any measurable impact on SmartThings sales or positive impact on SmartThings profit.

SmartThings isn’t intentionally alienating power users. But any unintentional apathy has no consequence to their long term goals.


Respectfully not true. I have personally been promised multiple times since early 2016 and the company has publicly stated multiple times that the broken voice navigation would be fixed. And Samsung’s own global accessibility statements promise voice navigation. But it’s still not here. :disappointed_relieved:


@tgauchat - I don’t live on these forums as you appear to do (thanks for all the contributions you have made) so I may not have the latest, but I cannot believe I have lived in the clouds for 5 years (pun intended). I’ve been sticking around mostly because of the message (hope) spread on these forums by ST that local execution was on their roadmap and that it would eventually happen. The varying delay in automations is very frustrating as it reduces the benefits of automation significantly and gives a general sense of unreliability (in some cases it actually makes things quite unreliable!).

I 100% disagree with you on power users not being influencers. A lot of what I did, was because of what I learnt from other users, typically those who have larger and more complex systems than I do. I enjoy their creativeness and use what I learn from them to come up with my own solutions. Those same influencers are now drawing me to finally accept I have to move in whole, or in part, to Hubitat to get the performance (read: lack of varying lag) I expect from a home automation system.

EDIT: “steady progress” - might be true, but if they are late to market with their “progress” it is just as bad as not having the technology in the first place. Just look at the customers lost to Hubitat and the mere fact that a new competitor resulted from what you define as “their apathy to power users”.

So… How many SmartThings Customers have been lost to Hubitat?

I can assure you that no one at Samsung is losing even a second of sleep over that product (unless they are irrationally neurotic). The very fact that folks here think an obscure niche startup is actually anywhere close to being on Samsung’s radar is evidence of how disconnected the power users are from the real goals and strategy of the Samsung mega-corp. Hubitat who?


I hope you don’t end up having to use 3 hubitat hubs like some of the power hubitat users :grinning:. I own one but have not really migrated my ST setup over.


And that’s incredible and infuriating.

But, with no disrespect intended, that’s a very specific function that affects a very specific and non-trivial market segment.

I find it incredible that Samsung has not been dragged through the mud across the media spectrum on this and felt compelled to act.

Perhaps it’s a cultural issue. But I don’t know if it reflects the culture across many SmartThings management attitudes, Samsung’s culture across many Samsung products, or a common issue in across the gadget industry - with notable exceptions (which shouldn’t have to be labeled “admirable” exceptions).

I can’t believe you’re still giving this company any legitimacy.

I guess my statement regarding promises is more accurate if I say that I have not experienced any promises of features relevant to me.

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@tgauchat - your tone is quite arrogant and condescending. While I appreciate your technical contributions and the time and effort you dedicate to HA, I have often NOT appreciated your tone towards me and others on this forum.

Whether Samsung cares about the “obscure niche startup” is irrelevant. What is relevant is them ignoring the needs that this startup is filling.


I apologize. It’s not my intention to be disrespectful, even if my statements are blunt.

Fact is that I don’t consider 'forums" to be the real world and so I often speak quickly, freely and directly, without regard to the tone. Not an excuse, but consider it a personality quirk. I personally think folks should have thicker online skins.

Be confident in your opinions.

One reason I respond so arrogantly is that I’m confident in my opinion (and it’s just my humble opinion).

It’s your opinion that SmartThings is ignoring the value of power users as influences. It’s my opinion that one reason for this is, possibly, in my humble opinion, Samsung simply doesn’t see any such value (in the context of their goals), and I, personally, agree.

In my opinion, I think you’re making a rather large, and likeky inaccurate, assumption.

I assume that Samsung is fully aware of those “needs” (ie, they are not ignorant of such needs and desires), but they have either deliberately decided that they do not wish to serve these needs (which is their right as a private profit seeking business), or they will interpret and fill these needs when and how they are ready to.

My assumption may be the wrong one - but I don’t mind being labeled “arrogant” for not pre-disclaiming every wild statement I make here - nor do I expect anyone else to pad their opinions.

You think I’m arrogant and condescending for directly sharing an opposite view to your thoughts. It’s not personal.

Sorry you felt dismissed. The feelings you shared in this thread are no less valid than mine, but I enjoyed sharing mine too.


I don’t mind opposing views, it’s about how they are laid out. Also, my feedback is based on numerous posts from you and your admission above would explain why. I am not taking any of this personally. I am here simply because I want ST to work for me and am frustrated by the apparent lack, or uber slow, progress in the pain points I have described.

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So my question to you and everyone else who has ever posted similar pain points and frustration:

With absolutely no disrespect, sarcasm, or arrogance intended:

Do you really think that posting here will make a difference? Based on what evidence? Or based on what assumptions? Are you looking for your assumptions to be confirmed?

Are you feeling that after 5 years with this product you think that this multi-billion dollar conglomerate has overlooked what you believe the market wants and/or that you (and perhaps a few other contributors to the Topic) know the secret of what the company needs to do to succeed? All that you need to do is post it for the magic to happen?

Seriously - I know that can’t help but sound condescending, but I’m genuinely curious. What do you actually hope or expect to achieve here?

Or are you just venting? (In which case, go for it, but you can expect it to get windy in here… Or if you just want empathy, I guess that is not an unreasonable expectation, but probably best to ask for it specifically).

“The fact is this, the more you hack at the system, the less reliable it will be. In ANY automation system.”
Bingo. Well said. - Dan

I agree with this too, but “hack” needs defining in this context. The only thing I might be doing that may fall in the “hacking” category is trying to fix incomplete or buggy DTHs to get access to the full hardware features of the device. Examples are to enable a open/close door DTH to get battery status updates, or to enable my 4 speed fan controller to actually work as a 4 speed instead of the common 3 speed variants. It would be incredibly helpful if hardware manufacturers took it upon themselves to write ST DTHs for their hardware instead of just leaving it to the community. Some community DTHs are awesome, some have lots of issues but are the only choice.

You might also consider hacking what I did to figure out why my motion switches were locking up requiring power cycling to be restored or why my dimmers were breaking when controlling ceiling fan lights. What I did helped the respective manufacturers to fix hardware issues they found in part thanks to the feedback I provided them. You are all now benefiting from those fixes… Is that bad hacking?

I know I am far from a programmer so I take responsibility when things related to my changes do not work. Other than that, I am curating my mesh networks in an attempt to keep them healthy and to reduce traffic where possible. I’ve purchased additional tools to help me with this as ST does not offer any assistance in doing so, and things seem to be working well. I concur with @tgauchat that ST has made significant progress on reliability when it comes to the mesh networks even though I still read of power users with nightmare scenarios (lots of devices dropping off or getting stuck, etc). An area where ST still needs significant improvement seems all related to their reliance on the cloud.

I am just one small voice, so no, I do not believe my post will make a difference. However, I do believe that customers who are passionate of the technology should voice their concerns or dissent with the direction a company is taking. Maybe someone at ST will read this, and maybe someone will care to raise the issue internally. I am pretty sure they are aware of the issue given I am not asking for anything new… I am just a +1.

Sounds like you are saying that one should just accept what a large company does as they know best and shut up. Well, if memory doesn’t fail me… Apple introduced the first smart phone with the intention of keeping Apps locked down (no user apps) but customers hacked their phones - including myself - and demanded the ability to install non Apple apps. Look where the market is today… Customers knew much better than Apple what was the right thing to do. Is this not an example that contradicts your point?

It is a conversation. I expect people, such as yourself, to go on the defensive of status quo, some to be indifferent as the issues have not affected them in any significant way (or they just don’t care), and some may empathize. The majority of those that might empathize have likely left the ST platform so they are unlikely to read my comments.

Your polemic comments appear to attack my position with no constructive purpose. What I ask for, would benefit all users whether they see it or not. Who doesn’t benefit from more reliability, and less lag? Some may already get the level of reliability and performance they need/want but does my request hurt them in any way?

Rather than attacking my purpose for venting on this forum, or the validity of my request for better reliability and performance, why don’t you explore possible causes for the issues I see? Maybe, you or others, can contribute the solution you have adopted to minimize these issues. I am always glad to learn. At this point, my intention is to figure out how to retain ST but offload the local processing to Hubitat… and there is a community developed app to do just that.

Just got this email - awesome news:


I often get questions like this from friends of mine on the autism spectrum. (Quite a few are engineers.) “What’s the point?” Is a very genuine question for them.

The simplest answer is that for most neurotypical people, venting to a sympathetic audience does provide direct benefits: just being heard helps release some emotion which allows the person’s brain to then self-regularize biochemically and lets them then move on to other things. This has been pretty well studied.

The trick is not to get stuck in continual complaining. (And not to vent in a way that makes the problem worse.) Share the moment, feel better, then move on to actually solving problems again. :sunglasses:


In reference to Apple creating the Appstore in response to customer demand to allow non-Apple developed Apps:

  1. I never said that Samsung isn’t considering the needs or desires of their customers; just that I’m quite sure they are already aware of your specific issues (certainly the desire for local rule processing) and may, like Apple, implement applicable solutions if and when it fits their business plans.

  2. As a counter-example from Apple (and Samsung), consider the very prominent backlash from consumers and the media regarding the removal of the 1/8" standard headphone jack on their smartphones. Apple ignored it. Samsung initially kept the jack and used it as a competive advantage over iPhone (they had commercials humorously demonstrating the inconvenience of adapter dongles), but have unilaterally removed the jack on the latest models.

I’m not saying that customers shouldn’t voice their issues and ideas. I’m saying that we’ve been told many times that this Community is not monitored for issues/requests - the applicable channels are Support and Ratings; and I’m saying that even if all ~10,000 Community members spoke up here, it would still be miniscule compared to the overall customer base and market size, so I do not agree that Topics like this have any significant chance of an impact. You’re welcome to be more optimistic - but I believe you will just face continuing disappointment or maybe even extra frustration because you’re not being heard even as a member of a “large” (not) Community echoing your concerns.

Anyhow: The continuing periodic Community “frustration” is sufficient indication that such Topics will continue regardless of any evidence they have any impact on the direction of the product and platform; so obviously it’s ironic and pointless for me to continue to bother to point out this observation. Go ahead and gather some +1’s if you want. Perhaps my negativity will motivate even more folks to support you.

We are taking slow and deliberate steps to enable developers to do the very thing you are asking for. A lot of us that work at SmartThings are what you could call “power users” too. Plus it’s not just one rule builder like webcore, but we are enabling every developer with the tools and ability to create their own spin a rules engine.


@jody.albritton - This news (I got the email today) was a VERY pleasant surprise. Integration of webCore into the ST platform was in my ‘hopes and dreams’ given Adrian’s hiring but I was not expecting it. If anything, I figured it would have been a simplified version to appeal more to the masses.

In your quote I also read:

The promised land… but when will we get there??? :slight_smile: I am glad it is being reconfirmed. Hopefully I’ll still be around to enjoy the fruits of this extended development. Who knows… I received my HE hub this week and am currently planning on what to migrate (anything needing local execution that ST cannot currently do) and how.

@jody.albritton - Would you mind confirming whether the promised local execution will be possible when using custom DTHs? The standard DTHs simply do not support any of the extended features many of my devices have so they are far from ideal. If the basic local DTHs remain a requirement, that would be a deal breaker too.


Thanks @jkp - I knew I wasn’t dreaming things… The post above matches what was my understanding but you end up questioning the veracity when it takes years (or what feels like years - lets not get into a date debate) to get there.

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