Is anyone working on Leviton Vizia RF +?

Devices & Integrations Connected Things
41

OK, that’s consistent. The SmartThings hub as a secondary controller does not query the primary for network updates. So the only devices it will know about is the ones which were already connected to the primary at the time that the hub joined the network. If you want to add new Z wave devices after that time, you have to remove the smartthings hub and then re-add it each time after you have added new Z wave devices.

This is one of the main reasons they officially “strongly advise against” trying to use it as a secondary. It’s technically possible, but very primitive. :disappointed_relieved:

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Finally getting around to do something with my Vizia RF + system and Smartthings Hub. I have a 2 but it is still in the box. Running on the 1. So, before I begin, after looking at recent posts, thinking maybe another hub brand would be better. Any feedback on others for working with the Vizia system? Wink, like Smartthings is set up for many protocols so I presume has similar problems. Any recommendtions?

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I have saved the Z-Wave Tweaker code to my MyDeviceHandlers in IDE and published it (for me). But when I go to My Smartthings App, Marketplace, SmartApps, My Apps, it’s not there. How do I get Z-Wave Tweaker to show up in my Smartthings App?

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You should ask any questions about using the tweaker in the author thread for that code. That will get you the fastest and most accurate answer.

But the short answer is that it’s not a smartapp: it’s a device type handler. So to use it, you select the device in your “things” list that you assigned to it and then you will be able to set the parameters for that device. But again, ask any follow-up questions in the tweaker thread.

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Thank you. I’m sorry for the protocol breach. I’m very new to this.

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After 6 years, here’s an update on the Smartthings hub working with an extensive Leviton managed network. There are 70 devices now, a few replaced over time and several added. The initial posting had to do with how to add a new device included via the Leviton Vizia-RF program (windows). This device doesn’t get added to the hub.

Support did give me a link to the API web tool that let me see a lot of info, including what devices the hub sees. Using the iPhone app I’m able to manage the names, etc. But the hub still really wants to be a master. Adding a device that’s already added to Vizia obviously doesn’t work. The hub should be able to sniff traffic and maybe even discover a new one but it doesn’t. Probably because Zwave is a mesh and not all traffic is repeated everywhere.

What is really needed is a ‘manual device addition’ capability either by the API UI or in the iPhone app. The API UI is the ideal spot because it’s ready showing devices found, traffic, etc.

Anybody have another solution to this? Deleting the hub and re-adding it is a non-starter because of the automation, device names, and rooms already programmed.

-Peter

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Are you saying that your Leviton Vizia-RF devices (which are Zwave) are tied to a primary controller other than SmartThings (perhaps the USB stick on Windows?). And you’re trying to use SmartThings as a secondary controller to manage the same devices?

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That is correct. Vizia-RF uses a USB controller on a windows machine that provides special capabilities related to Leviton devices (which are the bulk of my wall units). These 4-way controllers in the wall can only be configured using the Leviton software.

The Smartthings hub is a secondary controller in this configuration. On initial install, the ST hub ‘reads’ the network of devices and remembers them. Continued management is done through the Leviton Vizia-RF software. The hub thus gets out of sync since it does not discover added Zwave devices.

-Peter

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This is the way any secondary zwave controller works, not just SmartThings. Primary/Secondary really never worked right and unfortunately hasn’t been fixed in the years since it was introduced. At some point Silicon Labs stopped requiring it actually function for hub certification. Some hubs don’t even bother supporting all the features of secondary because they don’t work anyway.

ST does support it in theory but as you mentioned one of the limitations is that the device list is only copied to secondary controllers at the time they are included to the primary. This is the way it works. The only way to get a secondary to update its device list is to exclude and re-include it back to the primary.

@JDRoberts has more information about secondary controllers in this thread: FAQ: Zwave Secondary Hub Basics

Don’t use secondary’s for anything other than a utility. I’ve used them often to do firmware updates but never as an actual controller with logic. They get removed after they’ve done their work.

Some work has been done in the community with Edge drivers to support the Vizia-RF 4 button scene controllers natively in ST, not sure if they allow for the same customization as your Windows app does. See this thread: [ST EDGE] SmartThings Edge Driver for Leviton VRCS4-M0Z and VRCS4-MRZ (Beta)

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I am less pessimistic than @csstup about zwave secondary controllers. But they do work as he describes.

Their initial functionality was simple: provide low latency control of a locally distinct group of Z wave lighting devices and sensors. For example, an outbuilding or an entertainment room. They were designed in the days before everybody had a smartphone and wanted real time app updates, and they worked fine for that purpose. Particularly for motion sensor controlled lighting, or for some kinds of security sensors. Vera used them successfully for years. They also work fine when you have a distinct sub system, like swimming pool controls.

But it’s not intended to stitch together two different platforms, like Leviton and smartthings, and it’s not very good at keeping an app up-to-date.

So I think it’s old technology that was fine for its time, and still has some uses, but if you try to go beyond those, you’re likely to be disappointed.

Also smartthings just never implemented the secondary zwave architecture well, whether it was a primary with an added secondary, or a secondary for another primary.

All of which is to say, I think there are still times when it might make sense to add a secondary Z wave system to smartthings, particularly, for example, for something like a swimming pool control system, but otherwise… Yeah, it’s just not going to work great.

For Leviton devices, speaking just for myself, I feel like it now makes more sense to add the Leviton end devices to a smartthings hub and run everything from there. There are several pieces missing from the official smartthings features, but the community has stepped up and provided custombuilt utilities to fill most of the gaps, including for association and several of the scene controllers. So everything works a lot better now than it did back in 2013 when this thread was first started.

Was there a specific use case where you felt you needed to maintain the Leviton controller or is it just a matter of it being too much work to rebuild everything on the smartthings hub? :thinking:

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Surely like to know what customization you have.

I created a very simple edge driver for the VRCS4 4 button controller. I don’t use Associations as I find that the edge driver is responsive enough to use Automation or Rules to accomplish the same. This allows me to control dimming.

My setup has two VRCS4’s that are sync’d together – they control the same lights. I use the Manufacturer Specific commands to control the LED.

Given that there is no technical reference available to how the VRCS4 was supposed to function, my use of the basic functions made it work.

I decided to use Rules instead of automations and I am very satisfied.

If there are specific features that you would like, then please tell me.

Henry

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Fantastic, it looks like this thread will have some depth to it. JD, thanks for taking the time to ask the right questions.

I will readily admit that I’m not the 90%+ user that buys a Zwave light switch or bulb and wants to turn it on. Or open a lock. I first created home automation in the 90’s using X10. Had a 4br house that went through a major remodel, and I regrettably used X10 switches throughout the entire place. 4-way switches, PC controllers, automated sprinkler systems etc. Worked great to start but was a disaster because as each device was added, the signal quality dropped. Repeaters didn’t help.

Fast forward to 2010 when Zwave hits its stride. Reinforcing network, excellent Leviton Vizia-RF software to optimize the mesh and find lost nodes, and now I have 70+ devices (12+ 4-way switches) that provides tons of flexibility. For the most part aside from failed nodes (I think 4 in 10 years) the system just works. Even in the case of a failed node, there is a simple ‘replace node’ action in the Leviton software that keeps all of the programming intact when a node is replaced.

The only reason I added the Samsung device was because of the Alexa integration. I liked being able to talk to one of my 5 Alexa devices to turn on the dining room lights. Leviton had no interest in voice control, but this tied it all together.

So this thread isn’t about ‘how do I get my light bulb to turn on?’. It’s about the corner cases where new devices can’t be added easily without starting all over. I doubt there is anyone that would see this thread that has 70 Zwave devices installed and operational. But I’m hoping for the right techie or developer that says… hmmm… maybe there is a way to add device #71 to this network without resetting the Samsung Smartthings device.

In the past Samsung has provided some access via the API/web interface that lets me do some tweaks. But this is still limiting because it’s not their core ‘two lights’ business.

I’m open to ideas here, and have some quite a bit of experimentation without success. And if others run into large network issues, I’m happy to offer advice because of my past experiences.

-Peter

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Let’s turn things around for a minute.

One) smartthings does not offer a backup and restore utility of any kind. Lots of other Z wave hubs do, but smartthings does not.

  1. smartthings does not offer a migration utility of any kind. Not even to move from one model of their hubs to another. In fact, not even to move from one model of their hubs to the same model. Again, Lots of other Z wave hubs do, but smartthings does not.

  2. SmartThings does not support the standard “controller shift“ zwave command. That’s optional under the independent third-party specifications so they don’t have to, but again, lots of other Z wave hubs do, but smartthings does not.

Now that we know all that, it may be more believable when I say there just isn’t any way to do what you want to do with the smartthings architecture. Smartthings has overlaid zwave with its own proprietary architecture and it just makes it very difficult to untangle things in the way it would need to be done.

I know that’s not the answer you want to hear, and I know you’re talking about an edge case, but a migration utility is not an edge case and the fact that no community developer (and smartthings has a very creative developer community) has ever come up with one pretty much says all you need to know about access to the device tables.

So… if it’s true that really all you want from SmartThings is Alexa control, my suggestion is that you add any of the many other Z wave controllers that do handle secondary’s nicely and have Alexa support (which almost all of them do these days) and use that.

Just a thought.

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I have way over 70 zwave devices. Secondary controllers still can’t get new devices added after being included to the primary.

Even the defacto “low level” controller tool, PC Controller from SL can’t force a device resync if it’s added as a secondary controller.

Perhaps there are other controllers that support a work around to allow it, Ive not seen it mentioned as supported. Hubitat can’t. @JDRoberts mentioned there are.

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Thanks @JDRoberts. Have any specific recommendation for a secondary-worthy controller that can link with Alexa?

-Peter

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The following conversation is going to be super technical and off-topic for this forum, since you can’t do this with smartthings. So I’m just going to throw out some stuff as research topics for @po4599 to take to a forum for the candidate Z wave hubs that they are considering.

Sure it can, provided of course that there’s a SUC/SIS set up on the network. At least, it can request that its list of nodes be updated to include those that have been added to the primary since the PC controller join the network. That’s what the “update“ button is for in controller view. You’re right that it can’t be set up as an automatic maintenance task, but if you’re adding a new device, it’s just an additional manual step.

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In fact, there are people who have done this with hubitat, and discussed it in their forum. They comment on the fact that it succeeded at bringing in new nodes that had been added since the initial join, but it’s not pruning nodes that were deleted on the primary.

How to remove/update secondary Z-Wave PC Controller? - 🚧 Developers - Hubitat

  1. one easy option If I understand the desired use case would be to set up the secondary as an inclusion controller, and from then on just add all devices through the secondary. That should cause them to appear in both the secondary and primary without having to do any additional manual work.

  2. alternatively, on some hubs, you can use a controller shift to achieve the same thing. Shift the primary role to the secondary which should refresh the node tables, then shift the primary role back to the primary. But you just have to dig deep into the utilities available for any one hub to see if this is possible.

  3. otherwise, the human should be able to manually request a refresh from the secondary and pick up new nodes that were added to the SUC, but the exact method and terminologies varies from vendor to vendor, so again, it will take research, asking in the forums for those specific candidate hubs to see what’s possible. You could definitely do this on Homeseer HS3 and the menu options are still there for HS4, but I have seen some forum reports that it’s broken in HS4. It’s clearly an intended functionality, but you would need to verify that it still actually works.

Vera calls this “get network update from SUC/SIS” and it’s a standard hub utility for them. It’s included on the number of their models including via edge.

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Fibaro Home Center has historically offered only limited secondary hub management, so I would be concerned that the new Zooz Z hub has the same issues, but you should check with their forums.

  1. before doing all this research you’ll need to figure out whether the Leviton system as primary supports SUC/SIS updates on demand and if it supports assigning the role of inclusion controller to a secondary, but if the answer to both of those are yes, then it should be doable. But again, going further into those details would be way off topic in this forum, so I will leave those discussions for a more appropriate venue. :thinking:
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Perhaps that’s what I saw when i tested it. I just know it wasn’t clean where you could keep the secondaries in sync, even with a manual step. Maybe I didn’t hold my mouth right. Thanks for the info!

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