Important changes to Community Code Submissions and Developer Discussions

(Dan P Parker) #102

I can’t imagine making any serious use of ST without also availing myself of a powerful rules engine like CoRE. That said…did you read my follow-up post about those of us who do greatly value community-extensibility translating into getting others to adopt the platform, whether or not they ultimately make any use of those extensions?

(Patrick Stuart [@pstuart]) #103

No, it is still a fact that ST makes no revenue off community developers. Leveraging their contributions to bring people to the platform or keeping them is marketing…

If the community stopped developing solutions, SmartThings would not lose Net revenue. In fact one could argue the unrestricted cloud access developers and advanced users create as costs compared to the long tail 90+% of users that have a few devices and no customization use… The end of the day is I can confidently estimate that Community developers COST way more on the bottom line than the revenue that could be associated with bringing a small percentage to the platform.

(Kevin) #104

What would SmartThings do if Apple decided to say… “we have to limit our resources for approving app updates on the Store and we changed our review SLA to 6 months”? It’s a joke…

(Patrick Stuart [@pstuart]) #105

Apples and Oranges… If oranges are a grain of sand and even then that’s not even a fair comparison.

(Dan P Parker) #106

[quote=“pstuart, post:103, topic:79927”]No, it is still a fact that ST makes no revenue off community developers. Leveraging their contributions to bring people to the platform or keeping them is marketing…

If the community stopped developing solutions, SmartThings would not lose Net revenue.[/quote]

So now you’re mixing different uses of the word “revenue”: “Revenue” alone, and “net revenue”, which mean very different things.

Even if we accept your new shift from “revenue” to “net revenue” (which completely changes the argument) I don’t know that your confidence is supported by the fact that you have no real way of knowing how many ST sales are made with the advantage of the extensibility of the platform playing a crucial role, either directly or indirectly (via the chain of recommendations I described earlier). You might be correct, and I’m not arguing that you aren’t (because “net revenue” was never the issue to begin with)…but I see no reason to be confident that you are.

(Ed Meredith) #107

I think the premise of what Patrick was saying is rather simple to understand. ST future and the monies that they generate in that future primarily reside in integrations with 3rd party developers (other IOT companies) not the apps created in this community which drain ST resources and the general public does not even know they exist because that is not marketed to the general public (just check your local Best Buy to see if they market the community developers on their packaging or displays). By using closed integrations with those companies ST benefits by opening their platform to companies who have a product that maybe is compelling to the public therefore generating interest in the public in purchasing ST as well as opening ST up to that companies already established user base while simultaneously the other company benefits by gaining access to ST user base as a potential customer. That seems rather straightforward. A closed system is bad for everyone. If a 3rd party decides not to integrate anymore then your stuff does not work. Nest users that would be your T-stats. However with the open community that ST started we have the benefit of actually getting our Nest to work with ST. There just is not enough users of the community based apps to warrant the drain of ST resources.

(Someday my dog will be automated) #108

There has been signs for a long time and slowly they are moving towards the not-so-open platform direction. It just doesn’t make economic sense for them to help every user that decides to install custom code and breaks something on their setup.
ST is a true follower of the lean startup model, and we are all beta testers of this platform. Once they find fixes and a possible way for revenue based on all their experiences from us, they will go for it. It is a company and their priority is to make money.

(Dan P Parker) #109

Was that directed at me? If so, my issue, once again, was with what he actually said…

“St makes zero revenue from their community developers.”

…not with his later substantially altered versions of that claim.

(Larry) #110

they do make money on there community developers… i and many others would not have adopted this platform without community developers… That said they nevver reviewed and approved stuff anyway… I have probably over 10 things in the pipeline and never heard peep one from them… So no loss there… Biut if they do move to a closed system I and many others will jump ship.

(Larry) #111

and many of their closed apps do not work for crap… the public honeywell therm worked great… Doesnt work any longer … they could care less. The integrated one that ais not open doesn’t work for crap… it is missing many features the public domain one had and disconnects your therms on a weekly basis. I have reported the bug many times the are “working on it”

(Jason "The Enabler" as deemed so by @Smart) #112

I don’t think they are moving all that slowly… I think it’s gonna be a whole lot sooner than we would hope for.

(Ed Meredith) #113

No I was just interpreting what I thought Patrick was saying and adding my 2 cents on the matter. I have been in the community since its inception and developers and the open platform are the reason ST has gotten as far as it has but times are a changing.

(Geko) #114

Yes, I have and I have to agree with @pstuart’s assessment. SmartThings’ extensibility is valuable to me personally (it’s the only thing that still keeps me involved actually) and I’m sure to many others who’re active in the Community. But statistically, it’s still a small portion of SmartThings user base. By ST’s own admission, majority of their users have less than 16 devices, which means they’re unlikely to be power users who’d venture to install third-party apps and device handlers.

Yes, SmartThings was able to attract a lot of tinkerers and hobbyists and owns great deal of its success to the Community. But that’s all in the past. Their target has long ago shifted to mainstream users who value stability and reliability over extensibility and openness.

I don’t know what percentage of their sales comes from direct referrals, but I don’t think it’s substantially different from any other consumer electronic devices. Referrals come from satisfied customers, regardless of their developer status.

(Toby Cth3) #115

I won’t use SmartTiles solely because the founder uses these forums as his own advertising platform. He’s frequently plugging his products and it’s a bit distasteful IMO.

That being said, I really don’t see the issue with this announcement. No one is stopping developer code and nothing is really changing. ST didn’t really review / approve any apps before so at least they are being honest and saying that they won’t be. We can still develop / hack / improve ST in the unofficial way it has been for the past several years.

(Eric) #116

I’m not a SmartTiles user. I don’t think his plugs are bad but can see how others can. I don’t think SmartTiles is for profit (he does take donation payments) ActionTiles is.

At least @tgauchat is respectful, unlike some other for profit home climate developers.

Paying for software is a good thing if the dev wants paid and has a product worth paying for.

(Toby Cth3) #117

I dunno, I read 2-3 posts a week where he talks about his product. I’m all for improving ST, writing add-ons or creating something new but I feel (which is my opinion) that it’s a little much.

( I hate Mondays) #118

@tgauchat never struck my chords that way either, never saw this alleged “plugging”. As opposed to that other developer who conditions his support on “donations” and positive reviews…


In my experience, the comments about SmartTiles (which is a free product) have always been on point to the particular thread where they are posted. I myself often post about it in response to relevant questions, and I have no connection with the company at all.

Since actiontiles will be a subscription product, that may be a different issue, it just depends how it plays out. :sunglasses:

(Toby Cth3) #120

I personally find most of his stuff is posted random threads claiming ‘my product can do X Y Z’.

But now I’ve brought us WAY off topic. I blame the beer :blush: Let’s turn our anger back to ST!

( co-founder Terry @ActionTiles; GitHub: @cosmicpuppy) #121

Thanks for the feedback, Toby. I apologize if we take the opportunity to publicize ActionTiles a bit too often. I really do take note of complaints, and am cautious not to go too overboard.

Market “reach” / exposure is obviously extremely important to the success of our product. We don’t want to abuse the appreciation we have from our many, many fans: The vast majority of which discovered SmartTiles through this Community. —We’d much rather improve the product for the benefit of all our customers (who are all also SmartThings customers…) than divert resources to various expensive marketing research and promotional channels with a low ROI.

My policy is to only bring AT up when there is some relevant context. Sometimes it’s a… stretch, but I believe the appreciation from visitors who are happy to learn of AT as a potential valuable solution for them, usually outweighs the small inconvenience of skipping over our messages while you’re reading.

I also do what I can to be continously “helpful” to the Community in ways completely unrelated to AT. I’ve been here since the absolute beginning (Kickstarter), long before SmartTiles, and I earned my “Helpful” badge and many others, with countless contributions.

It’s not a formal sponsorship payment, but I hope that earns me a little extra leeway.

Thanks for understanding.
… Terry.